Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late • Hacker News Board

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#161

Post by loewenskind » Mon, Jul 05, 2010, 8:18 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #113

CamperBob wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them shifted into fields that didn't exist in 1900 because in 1900, food and shelter were the majority of what people in the US worked for. Exactly -- science led to technology which led to job creation. That's the whole story of the 20th century, with a couple of wars tossed in to keep things moving. Meanwhile, in 2010, science and technology are just two more things most Americans take for granted. We still…

"Meanwhile, in 2010, science and technology are just two more things most Americans take for granted. We still have to fight the Scopes monkey trial every few years, we couldn't get back to the Moon with any less time and money than it took the first time, and especially since 9/11, we're no longer a place where the world's STEM students come to study and live." You're actually very wrong about foreign STEM students…

>If nothing else, the simple fact that human intelligence follows a bell-curve

I challenge the idea that this is a "simple fact", rather that it's even true at all. How do you know? Right now it may appear so because so many schools grade on a bell curve (i.e. no other outcome is possible). In my experience, aside from people with genuine disorders, everyone has a similar (high) potential. The majority are just not properly stimulated. Maybe they have bad teachers, bad parents or are just lazy but if they were properly motivated they could achieve much more than they do.

Personally I find ideas like "the simple fact that human intelligence follows a bell-curve" dangerous. You're framing the potential of a whole species and people tend to assume this is true and act accordingly (e.g. grading on a bell curve).

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#162

Post by gaius » Mon, Jul 05, 2010, 9:24 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #118

lokiujhytyu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you become a director of a company you have a legal duty to "enhance shareholder value" thats the only rule. Anything else you do, every hire, every contract, every charity donation must be justifiable in this context - unless you enjoy shareholder lawsuits.

Can you point this out in a legal brief, law book, SEC ruling? something? I believe the only thing legal you are required to do is not to defraud your shareholders. Any idiot can, legally, run a company into the ground.

The phrase you are looking for is "fiduciary responsibility". You can just Google it: http://www.efmoody.com/arbitration/fiduciary.html

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#163

Post by timr » Mon, Jul 05, 2010, 9:06 PM UTC

CamperBob wrote: post #155

timr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Meanwhile, in 2010, science and technology are just two more things most Americans take for granted. We still have to fight the Scopes monkey trial every few years, we couldn't get back to the Moon with any less time and money than it took the first time, and especially since 9/11, we're no longer a place where the world's STEM students come to study and live." You're actually very wrong about foreign STEM students…

You're actually very wrong about foreign STEM students Am I? (every US graduate school is filled with Chinese grad students and post-docs), but that's neither here nor there What happens immediately after they graduate?

"Am I?"

Yes.

"What happens immediately after they graduate?"

It depends greatly on where they're from, and what they've been studying. A lot of my Chinese colleagues have gone back to China...because there are jobs there, and not here.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#164

Post by CamperBob » Tue, Jul 06, 2010, 1:27 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #163

CamperBob wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're actually very wrong about foreign STEM students Am I? (every US graduate school is filled with Chinese grad students and post-docs), but that's neither here nor there What happens immediately after they graduate?

"Am I?" Yes. "What happens immediately after they graduate?" It depends greatly on where they're from, and what they've been studying. A lot of my Chinese colleagues have gone back to China...because there are jobs there, and not here.

A lot of my Chinese colleagues have gone back to China...because there are jobs there, and not here.

Which I think you'll find was my exact point. We may still be the world's standard in STEM education, but we aren't necessarily benefiting from that position.

The world's best students come here to study, but not to live.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#165

Post by timr » Tue, Jul 06, 2010, 4:26 AM UTC

CamperBob wrote: post #164

timr wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Am I?" Yes. "What happens immediately after they graduate?" It depends greatly on where they're from, and what they've been studying. A lot of my Chinese colleagues have gone back to China...because there are jobs there, and not here.

A lot of my Chinese colleagues have gone back to China...because there are jobs there, and not here. Which I think you'll find was my exact point. We may still be the world's standard in STEM education, but we aren't necessarily benefiting from that position. The world's best students come here to study , but not to live .

"we're no longer a place where the world's STEM students come to study and live"

That's the quote from your original comment -- the one to which I was replying. So, while you may have meant to say something else, I don't see that in the text. If anything, now you seem to be contradicting your earlier remark.

Also, re-reading the original comment, I get the impression that you're arguing that we're falling behind in science and tech because of a cultural failure -- a lack of societal focus on science and technology. I don't think that's true for a variety of reasons, but the big one is the same argument raised by the article: we've out-sourced generations of technical expertise. There's little incentive for the foreign grad student to stay here, when the jobs are over there. The jobs are there because we sent them there, not because we've stopped educating American students.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#166

Post by binaryfinery » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 6:30 PM UTC

linhares wrote: post #157

binaryfinery wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that if we do, China will simply stop recycling its share of our government debt and the US government defaults. It will take a president with huge balls to call China on its trade war, and risk having to monetize that debt.

As of now, if I remember correctly, China has over 2 Trillion greenbacks. It's _impossible_ to win a trade war. We're talking about something _very_ much like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis#Financial_pressure It is easy to be protectionist. But a major selloff of the USD by China would create the mother of all confidence crises, and, while _everyone_ would lose, the world's reserve currency, the USD,…

"Damaged" i.e. lose a lot of value. Precisely. We could no longer afford to buy goods from China, Japan, etc. China doesn't have the internal economy to risk that. Yet. US manufacturing, and the US social fabric, would win win win. This is absolutely a war we can fight to win. And win it we must.