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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#401

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

We'll see how the trend moves going forward, but even after capturing (by rhetoric if not act) the white house, the alt-right continues to be a radical fringe, and suffers from serious internal contradictions that make any serious movement building doomed. The movement has attracted the attention of a lot of white nationalists, anti-semites and hardline fascists (amren, natall, kss), while also attracting a new wave…

> But what happens when the 4chan poster with the anime pillow who denies the holocaust just to get a rise out of the libcucks crosses paths with an actual hardline anti-semite who is interested in building an even-more-final solution?

Sounds like an amazing sit-com. Stay tuned, folks!

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#402
post #379

Hilary Clinton lost to a pussy graber you don't have to be a Google employee with PhD to see the world for what it is.

A pussy grabber won over Hilary Clinton. You don't have to be a Google employee with PhD to see how bad of a candidate she was. You see... two people can play that game. If anything, a pro-trump person could have used that same sentence of yours to demonstrate the opposite sentiment. Don't attribute biases to situations that are nothing other than complete and utter incompetence.

A former senator and secretary of state - complete and utter incompetence - sure whatever you say snowflake.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#403
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum" "What kind of freedom is there inside a corporation? They’re totalitarian institutions – you take orders from above and maybe give them to people below you. There’s about as much freedom as under Stalinism." Amen to that.

There is the freedom to negotiate, and the freedom to leave. Comparing it to Stalinism is silly, and surely disrespects the millions of people who genuinely suffered and died under Stalin.

And, of course, there is the freedom to reduce the chances of getting confronted with this issue. Let's see ... How would one do that ... Make sure no women passes any interview. Obstruct women and generally get them out of the team, or at least don't work with them when avoidable.

Why ? Because otherwise there WILL be instances, on occasion, where gender either is, or is simply perceived to be the basis for decisions. Since in both those instances you can get fired for simply getting into that situation, one must avoid getting into that situation at all.

So we'll see what we see in every other company now also at Google. No mixed teams. Male teams being terrified (or even having an unofficial policy of not having women, or only in specific roles or teams or otherwise separate), and have a few women-only departments, like sales or HR to pretend to make the quota.

We all know this is how Directors and VPs and the like think, we just don't say it. And (really quiet now) it is probably the correct way to maximize your career advancement.

Once you use force, all reasoned debate is over. Google engineering, I hope you enjoyed actually having women, because you'll miss them in the future ... And for Google HR, or perhaps legal or some such, I pity the men working there.

This is what people mean by "using force causes radicalization". Well, force was used. Expect strong reactions going forward.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#404
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting hypothesis, but apparently not what happened: "The trial found assigning a male name to a candidate made them 3.2 per cent less likely to get a job interview. Adding a woman's name to a CV made the candidate 2.9 per cent more likely to get a foot in the door." http://abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to...

Given "men typically giving themselves credit for work done in teams while women typically talk about the teams they were part of", then if you see a female CV it's more likely to be understated than if you see a male one. Which predicts two things: * People aware of this will prefer otherwise identical CVs with female names (expectation is the underlying candidate is stronger, just more modest) * Blind hiring will g…

See, that is what is known as "sexism".

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#405
post #183

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

I made the grave mistake of trying to express that point on Twitter. Twitter seems to be a poor vehicle for nuanced debate at the best of time, but it's a dumpster fire right now full of raging people who don't understand what you've just said. I was in SV last year for a couple of months during the election, and everyone I met were all paid up members of the church of political correctness up front, but when you spo…

Whenever you have a discussion about a topic in which people feel personally invested, their reasoning skills drop and their sentiment analysis ability goes up.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#406

Great perspective. As a Northern European having dealt with American company ownership I don't think the main problem in Google's case was political correctness but rather a general American problem with how free speech is defined in the US. Freedom in America is always about government NOT doing something, while in Europe government is defined as a protector of these freedoms. This shows up clearly with respect to s…

To be clear, a private company in the US cannot stop you from discussing anything at work but reserves the right to fire you at will, including for discussions it deems unproductive. Discussing politics in polite company in the US is indeed discouraged by culture. I personally think that's a good thing as people on opposite sides of the spectrum often can't agree on a basic set of facts, which makes discussions pointless. Do supporters of far right parties in Scandinavian countries often discuss politics with supporters of left wing parties at dinner ?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. The alt-right is not constantly infighting. The left are more likely to devolve into infighting. This google guy was moderate left wing and the hard line social justice response from Google and the media will alienate a lot more of the intellectual left. Hispanics and African Americans often lean socially conservative. Gay men are a lot more fiscally conservative than you might think. None of those…

"This google guy" was a self-declared conservative, and mentioned cultural marxism, an alt-right touchstone, in the very memo that is being discussed. His first interviews were with alt-right Youtube channels. I agree with your points about lots of minority groups being socially (and/or fiscally) conservative. It's lucky for the left that the white social conservatives have been driving them away consistently for dec…

Certainly a conservative compared to his coworkers.

I'd argue he is still left of center.

He is just interviewing with the groups who will give him a fair go.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. This is an example of people taking exactly the wrong lesson from this situation. The guy wasn't fired for having a 'dissenting opinion'. He was fired because he basically said women are underrepresented in IT because they are biologically unsu…

> This is an example of people taking exactly the wrong lesson from this situation. The guy wasn't fired for having a 'dissenting opinion'. He was fired because he basically said women are underrepresented in IT because they are biologically unsuited for it. He never said that women are "biologically unsuited" for IT. Here's what he sead in full: https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncenso... In shor…

> In short, he said that biological differences (with citations) can explain in the aggregate (not in the total absolute of the population) different preferences, job options, etc., and even suggested ways to change the working environment to alleviate those issues and make it welcome to more personality traits associated statistically with women (as described in citations and statistics he gave).

He is extrapolating from a few pieces of evidence to form the basis of an entire argument about why women are underrepresented while devoting zero time to the role of culture or bias. I think he tried hard to be even-handed but then there's things like, 'Women have higher neuroticism'. He hedges his language a bit by saying biological differences "may in part" explain the gender gap, but then goes on to talk exclusively about biological differences as the cause.

> What kind of person misattributes another with straw-man arguments they didn't say and gloats on their misfortune of being fired?

Who's gloating? I am neither happy or unhappy he got fired. If Google chose not to fire him and instead used this as a teachable moment I wouldn't really have any criticism.

> What he said might or might not be true, but in any case it's no basis for firing someone (as it's not related to their job performance), and it's something that absolutely should be allowed to be debated and studied.

If you say or do something that contravenes the values of your company, it usually is a fireable offense, regardless of job performance. Some people may disagree with Google firing him but ultimately they decide what their culture is. Maybe in this case they've run afoul of California employment laws, but in most at-will employment states people can be fired for any reason or no reason at all.

> The assumption "all sexes/cultures etc are equally predisposed to everything or even if they are not they should be considered as such and nobody should talk about it again" is not a way to have any kind of dialogue.

Eh no. Predispositions is one thing, but when people extrapolate that to say, "This group's abilities or outcomes are different because of biological differences," you're always walking into a minefield. Most serious studies about that stuff stop faarrrr short of making conclusions about career/life outcomes based on genetic behavioral predispositions.

It's not that people can't talk about this stuff, it's that it is very easy to get it wrong. And a lot of people have trouble recognizing that it is easy to get it wrong.

> If the tide turns, or you live in a country where the reverse tenets are held (e.g. Saudi Arabia), don't be surprised and don't complain if you are fired for saying what you believe then...

A. I choose not to live in a monarchy that has capital punishment for minor offenses. B. If what I believe doesn't match the values of a company, I'm either not going to join that company or I'm going to refrain from publishing manifestos on the corporate intranet.

> It's all par for the course and well as long as the majority or those in control of your job believe that you should have a specific sensitivity, right?

It's their company, they can do what they want with it. People are free to not work for them and customers are free to choose another search engine.

Either way, Damore chose to publish this document internally, because he wanted his manifest to have impact. This is not a case of someone minding their own business and getting terminated for expressing an unpopular opinion. He created a real problem internally and Google chose to cut him lose for that. And we don't even know if there were other factors to his firing.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#409

Disagreeing with Damore’s arguments is perfectly ok. Not liking the style of his memo is perfectly ok. Calling Damore young and clueless is useless ad hominem. Chances are he is smarter than you and me and the memo is actually well sourced. Calling him a WHITE MAN is an essentialism that reveals the author's bias.

I agree on all points and want to add, that calling him a 'WHITE MAN' is racist as well.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see another problem: If you can't be openly sexist (or whatever you call it), you will still be in secret.

I see yet another problem: if you're a rational person who happens to hold wrong beliefs on the topic, you will have less chance to discover and correct your mistake, because the only way the others are willing to engage with you is with stupidity and violence. This low standard of discourse hurts everyone.

Except... wait for it... the employer: Google.

Employees at work: shouldn't be discussing issues that distract them; shouldn't be socializing with each other because work and personal life should obviously be separate; they should just keep their heads down and keep working.

There's no doubting that all recent controvertial topics have led to the ideas that: divide up society into individuals afraid to express their opinions; human expression is not an important goal and that the workspace where you spend most of your time is ONLY to do the job like a machine.

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