As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People • Hacker News Board

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#191

Post by tzs » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 10:26 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #133

> James Damore should probably have used fewer words with high negative emotional indices, when more neutral ones were available. But he was basically making the same point that I am: that women seem to have less interest in working with inanimate objects, and that ignoring this is going to lead to a lot of useless or even counterproductive diversity initiatives. Hard to take this piece seriously. I've worked in tech…

I think that in the context of the article having less interest in working with inanimate object means wanting to work with the objects is not a reason one takes the job.

Yes, successful investigative journalists work with documents. But do they become investigative journalists because they want to work with documents? Or do they become investigative journalists because they want to uncover the truth behind stories, and documents are simply tools used as part of that?

Compare documents to cars. There are many people who like cars, and because of that seek out a career where they get to work with cars and don't really car what the cars are being used for.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#192

Post by mcv » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 10:37 AM UTC

Maken wrote: post #83

ucaetano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yes there is a root cause in biology No. Proof: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... If there was a root cause in biology, in 1980 there wouldn't be the same % of women in CS as in business, or almost the same as social sciences. Or almost the same as there are women in math/stats today. Something happened in the early 80's. I have a hypothesis for that, tied to the rise of video-games, s…

Sometimes I wonder why it is "natural" that some fields are dominated by females by nearly a 90% but it is worrisome that others are 80% male. I mean, given a more or less equivalent intelligence distribution people needs to end doing something. Also, the dotcom bubble sure killed CS.

I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Netherland, a lot of people are worried about the dropping number of men in education. It's becoming increasingly dominated by women, but it's important that kids also see men in front of the class.

I think my oldest son's school has only two male teachers, and my youngest son's childcare has only one male childcarer (what's the word for that?). It'd be healthy if it was a bit more equal.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#193

Post by mcv » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 10:39 AM UTC

ptr_void wrote: post #165

ucaetano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yes there is a root cause in biology No. Proof: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... If there was a root cause in biology, in 1980 there wouldn't be the same % of women in CS as in business, or almost the same as social sciences. Or almost the same as there are women in math/stats today. Something happened in the early 80's. I have a hypothesis for that, tied to the rise of video-games, s…

Staring at the chart, 1980 doesn't seem that significant. It shows from 1970s to 1980s, almost every major has seen an increase in women graduates. I don't know much about this subject, best I can do is pass around a link(video) I saw that was semi-convincing to me that - there might be some general biological tendencies( https://youtu.be/p5LRdW8xw70 ). Biological tendencies are not useful for individual cases, so as…

I think it's about 1984 where Computer Science suddenly peaks and drops back to below 20%. It's the only field to do so; the others keep going up. Though Engineering stays below 20% the entire time.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#194

Post by dsfjksdf » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 10:50 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #187

true_religion wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men in America, but not in the world in general, are more money conscious than status conscious. They're more likely to salve the idea of not having a respectable job with thinking about how much money they are making.

I doubt it. There are a lot of men who care a great deal about status. I've even heard of men who don't want to date women who make more money than them, because they feel it hurts their status. If they cared more about money, they'd gladly date a richer woman. The problem is this patriarchal idea that men should be the main breadwinner. Our culture tells them they've failed at being men if they're not the main bread…

It's usually the other way round - women don't want to date men who earn less. You probably heard your version from the feminists.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#195

Post by learningram » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 11:53 AM UTC

noncoml wrote: post #30

The memo was making the point that because men have more affinity to things than women, Google should not try for a 50/50 balance between men and women. The author here says that she enjoyed her work but left because the predominant male co-workers had affinity to things and couldn't relate with them. If anything the author makes a case for Google's current strategy of striving for 50/50 men women balance, since that…

Yes, you completely misinterpreted the who argument and twisted it to suit your view point. I think it would have been more dignified if you said you disagreed with the article. Some heights of passive aggressiveness in your comment

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#196

Post by mcv » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 12:15 PM UTC

dsfjksdf wrote: post #194

mcv wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. There are a lot of men who care a great deal about status. I've even heard of men who don't want to date women who make more money than them, because they feel it hurts their status. If they cared more about money, they'd gladly date a richer woman. The problem is this patriarchal idea that men should be the main breadwinner. Our culture tells them they've failed at being men if they're not the main bread…

It's usually the other way round - women don't want to date men who earn less. You probably heard your version from the feminists.

Quite the contrary. This is the first time I hear of women who refuse to date a man who earns less than them (excepting gold diggers, of course), and I've heard about men who don't want to date women who earn more than them, from men who think women should not earn more than them.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#197

Post by dsfjksdf » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 12:27 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #196

dsfjksdf wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually the other way round - women don't want to date men who earn less. You probably heard your version from the feminists.

Quite the contrary. This is the first time I hear of women who refuse to date a man who earns less than them (excepting gold diggers, of course), and I've heard about men who don't want to date women who earn more than them, from men who think women should not earn more than them.

Women marrying up is historically the biggest driver of equality in Western societies (poor people becoming richer). Economist have identified it as a problem because as women get richer and they don't want to marry down, that mechanism for "equality" is increasingly lost.

So there have been studies about this phenomenon (women not wanting to marry down), but I am too lazy to Google for them.

Also, financial troubles of the husband are the strongest indicator for impeding divorce. And breakups are usually initiated by women.

Every time this comes up I wonder if I should launch a dating site for rich women seeking a "houseman" for a partner. But somehow I am still not convinced yet that there is really such a huge market.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#198

Post by mcv » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 1:48 PM UTC

dsfjksdf wrote: post #197

mcv wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the contrary. This is the first time I hear of women who refuse to date a man who earns less than them (excepting gold diggers, of course), and I've heard about men who don't want to date women who earn more than them, from men who think women should not earn more than them.

Women marrying up is historically the biggest driver of equality in Western societies (poor people becoming richer). Economist have identified it as a problem because as women get richer and they don't want to marry down, that mechanism for "equality" is increasingly lost. So there have been studies about this phenomenon (women not wanting to marry down), but I am too lazy to Google for them. Also, financial troubles…

Yeah, but that's part of the old patriarchal system where men make money and women stay at home. In this age of double incomes, it should be irrelevant. Still, some people cling to the old patriarchy.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#199

Post by dsfjksdf » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 2:37 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #198

dsfjksdf wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women marrying up is historically the biggest driver of equality in Western societies (poor people becoming richer). Economist have identified it as a problem because as women get richer and they don't want to marry down, that mechanism for "equality" is increasingly lost. So there have been studies about this phenomenon (women not wanting to marry down), but I am too lazy to Google for them. Also, financial troubles…

Yeah, but that's part of the old patriarchal system where men make money and women stay at home. In this age of double incomes, it should be irrelevant. Still, some people cling to the old patriarchy.

It's not just that, it is that women have the greater bargaining chip in the relationship. They have the womb for creating babies, so they can make more demands. Also, they make the greater investment into kids (at first, at least, over time it can change), which also warrants "compensation".

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#200

Post by sudosteph » Thu, Aug 10, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

vings wrote: post #179

sudosteph wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy stereotypes, batman. > Women can be great engineers, we just rarely care to become them How do you presume to know what the majority of women care to be? I'm a woman, and I want to be a great engineer. I was extremely fortunate to grow up in an environment with a female technical role model (my mom), so I easily saw myself going this way, despite the societal emphasis on empathetic skills the rest of the world e…

Allow me to clarify some things in my post: I intentionally worked on the basis of stereotypes or generalisations. If 60% of group A wants prefers X over Y while only 40% of group B prefers X over Y, it's accurate to speak in general terms, even if there are many individual exceptions. Any discussion of women in technology _in general_, as opposed to individual women in tech, inherently relies on the ability to make…

> I don't think women who are not engineers really envy those who spend their time this way

Again, you are presuming to know what the majority of women feel. Your personal preference for "emotionally fulfilling" work is just that, personal preference. As for the study you linked, it's impossible to seperate the influence of gendered socialization and inequal exposure to potential interests from "biological" sources as causes for the differences.

Applying these types of weak generalizations to justify differences which are better explained by sexism is not helping women in any way. Maybe if you had experienced childhood as a a female you would understand how toxic female socialization really can be. Stop telling other women what we prefer to be or care about, and just help make a world where girls are not told they need to be "emotionally fulfilled" to enjoy a job. Because that's the one that still exists and prevents women from exploring technical work.

Many girls worldwide are still groomed for being caretakers responsible for doing emotional labor and household labor for family when they could be exploring their own interests. I know women, in America, who were raised in this manner and it was very hard for them to to break away from that expectation and work for themselves instead. They wrestled with guilt and their family accused them of selfishness, but they decided rightly that their destiny is theirs and it was wrong for their family to treat them like a servant (notably their brothers were not treated that way). It's easy to conflate the effects of that type of socialization with biological dispositions, but nobody is helped by doing so.