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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#291

Post by yorwba »

michaelchisari wrote: post #220
Const-me wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we don’t have that proof. However, the design matches the defaults of google forms, exact colors and their sequence, too: http://imgur.com/WPC0ogZ Also the header says "gd-jpeg v1.0", it’s a cross platform open source C library with bindings for all modern programming languages including Go and Python: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GD_Graphics_Library Even if that’s a fake, it’s a good one.

I mean, GD has been around for over 20 years. It's not obscure. It's extremely popular. Most coders have used it at some point. I could whip upa similar graph without breaking a sweat that says whatever I'd like, and it would have all the same hallmarks of this one. I could even do it in PHP using ImageMagick (if I felt masochistic) and fake the file header to say it was created using GD. Or build it in photoshop, an…

> So I think unless there's someone who can point to greater evidence that this is an internal graph, there's just no reason to believe it is.

So I think unless there's someone who can point to the actual internal graph, there's just no reason to believe this is fake.

The distribution this poll shows is not so outlandish as to be unbelievable, and importantly it does not lend itself to overwhelmingly support one side over the other. Why would anyone spend time and effort to fake it?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#292

Post by peoplewindow »

minipci1321 wrote: post #243
Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

Didn't read his memo, am not interested in the debate, and am not saying he should be fired or kept. That said, I'd think that he was fired not because of his opinions, but because he seems to have done an irreparable damage to Google's image: for good or bad reasons, people will react strongly and negatively to the publication of his memo, and whatever Google does -- keeps him or lets him go -- this negative impact…

The memo wasn't published. It was leaked. Whoever leaked it is the one who damaged Google's reputation. They then damaged it more when they claimed they respect diversity and then fired the guy in response to mob outrage.

The damage to Google's reputation here is on them. Almost by definition.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#293

Post by oculusthrift »

reubeniv wrote: post #289

I'm trying to understand his motivations, maybe it is just naivety, but that he wanted to talk about something that was bothering him, and didn't understand why he couldn't (or shouldn't) talk about it publicly seems fairly typical of a condition like aspergers, is it possible he simply has something like that? Either way the witch hunt needs to cease immediately.

after watching his hour long interview with jordan peterson, it's almost certain. he was painfully awkward. if not aspergers, he must have zero social iq.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#294

Post by nd7287z »

pink_duck wrote: post #242
michaelchisari wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I emphatically disagree. All of those skills are necessary to be a strong team member, and thinking that only management requires them is to move into territory where programming as a trade is in need of micro-management and social babysitting by a managerial class. I've been in plenty of teams that were extremely flat exactly because the programmers in those teams were all highly skilled in those areas.

I have just joined the workforce after uni, and it has never been more clear to me that what you're saying about communication and "people skills" is correct. Almost all of the issues that the company that I work for have are based on lack of communication skills, lack of empathy, too much ego etc. It reminds me of what a coed wrote to me once about the difference between a good developer, and two ok ones. "2 Basical…

This claim is entirely unsubstantiated. In fact it is pretty much the opposite of the theses in Fred Brooks' "Mythical man month".

I'm not saying Brooks is 100% correct, but his observations are close to what I am seeing in the field.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#295

Post by timgrahamtech »

Aeolun wrote: post #251
timgrahamtech wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the goal is making him understand that he got fired for how he expressed those opinions. He didn't just talk to HR or his manager, he published a rant for all the world to see making it the CEO's problem. Anyone who publishes an incoherent 10 page manifesto insulting their coworkers and trashing their company's policies can reasonably expect to get fired. It doesn't matter if any of the bosses agree or disagree…

Publishing something on an internal board that's aimed at discussing diversity is hardly 'publishing the rant for all the world to see'. I just don't get how people who're obviously upset about this memo and must therefore have spent some time reading up about it (right? Right?!) still get this basic fact wrong. This guy expressed his opinions, and a witch hunting mob, because that's what it was, descended on him fro…

Let's not pretend he didn't know what he was doing. There are textbook examples about people who blast off a rant to the entire company and then are somehow surprised when it becomes public (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...).

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#296

Post by archagon »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

I find it disturbing that somebody would even consider switching to the alt-right over this. Do people not have deeply-held beliefs anymore? Personally, that is a line that I would never, under any circumstance, cross, even if I was the one who got fired and blacklisted. It is a non-negotiable position.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#297

Post by TeMPOraL »

GVIrish wrote: post #266
dx034 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was fired because he basically said women are underrepresented in IT because they are biologically unsuited for it. I don't understand why people keep repeating that statement. He said that biological differences explain the different ratios of men and women, NOT that women are not suited for tech jobs. He explicitely did not say (nor mean) that a woman can't be a good software engineer. Just that on average, mo…

> I don't understand why people keep repeating that statement. He said that biological differences explain the different ratios of men and women, NOT that women are not suited for tech jobs. He explicitely did not say (nor mean) that a woman can't be a good software engineer. Just that on average, more men than women will show the features needed for software engineers. The problem is that his whole argument is based…

> He even stated 'Neuroticism' as a trait women are predisposed to, which could've been pulled right out of an argument for why women shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Did you read this article? Or references linked by the original memo? Even this article clearly points out that "neuroticism" thing is pretty much established, accepted, and uncontroversial science.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#298

Post by TeMPOraL »

zimpenfish wrote: post #288
jcims wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the liberty of labeling one of the diagrams in the document with two points labeled A and B. How would you interpret the relationship of these points if A was a man and B was a woman? http://imgur.com/a/kWyTi

I would definitely agree that A was to the left of B. I would also concede that B is to the right of A. But since the only label on the graph is an unidentified "Trait", I couldn't really comment any further. What point are you trying to make?

That the value on the y axis, for those two points taken from presented distributions, is the fucking same...

It's hard to make that point even more obvious.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#299

Post by CrystalLangUser »

Tarean wrote: post #254
jdoliner wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In no company in the world is this a "diversity policy." Diversity policies are the exact opposite of this. If they were as you describe, I'm sure the the author of the memo, and everyone who agrees with it, would be completely in support of them.

There are companies that strip personally identifying information from the resume in the first few phases and iirc diversitiy did go up. Been a while since I read about it so I don't recall thr complete details but there is a radio lab episode about it.

This year, GitHub did that for a conference, letting people submit talks and compete for selection completely stripped of identifying info.

The only people selected were men.

That conference was canceled because it didn’t stand with Github’s stance on diversity, etc.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14480868

—

Companies actively do the exact opposite because they need/want more diversity. It’s absolutely not like the music world where a large amount of women play instruments... the number of women in CS professionally is low. The number of female CS graduates is and has been low.

Simply stripping info doesn’t mean anything if at the end of the day a diversity agenda has to be met.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#300

Post by EvaK_de »

anabis wrote: post #91
simlevesque wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not better man... There are nazi memes and misoginistic memes on the new link.

Have you read the parent article? It is the same link that the parent article is using, at the 3rd to last paragraph with text "and a poll conducted at Google confirms" .

This poll only had about 400 self-selected participants. That doesn't make for reliable numbers at all.
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