Live data from Hacker News

As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

bloomberg.com

171–180 of 228 posts

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#171

The idea that you've got to be some sort of obsessive wretch with no life outside of tech in order to successfully fill a role at a tech company is nothing but a pernicious myth. So is the idea that you've got to be some ridiculous super-genius. All you have to do is be reasonably smart and capable of learning on the job. When interviewers at tech companies mistakenly believe that every successful candidate has to be…

>>The idea that you've got to be some sort of obsessive wretch with no life outside of tech in order to successfully fill a role at a tech company is nothing but a pernicious myth.

Right. But being good in this world is you vs your-peer-group. And if others in your peer group are too awesome, putting in insane hours and time getting ahead, sooner or later the top spots will be taken. And nobody likes to be stuck being ranked average despite the best they can do.

>>So is the idea that you've got to be some ridiculous super-genius.

Reminds me of this movie - "The Gambler"- A literature professor tells his students the difference between somebody who can write good stuff and being the next William Shakespeare. Everybody has to face this fact sooner or later. Special things happen only when you are ready to put in special effort. While reminding them, there is absolutely nothing wrong in being a electrician or a plumber.

>>All you have to do is be reasonably smart and capable of learning on the job.

Being good and not good enough will only take you that far. Of course, you can still do your job and get paid. But remember other people will likely take the top spots.

>>When interviewers at tech companies mistakenly believe that every successful candidate has to be building atom smashers in their spare time

Tech and especially fast changing ecosystem in Tech have seen large concentration of Nerds. Kind of people who've wanted to build video games, or win science fairs at school. When too many people of same type arrive at a place it becomes a culture.

>>But this isn't natural or normal or a product of biology - it's just bias perpetuating itself.

This is the most important part.

I had a friend who quit programming to do MBA and built a career there. He realized there is no way he would like to spend weekends exploring new tools that keep launching every few months and endless push to use bleeding edge stuff, work insane hours, weekends and with the overall fast paced, failure ridden culture of tech.

He is doing pretty well with managing business now.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#172
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's very close to what gyardley argued. First paragraph is a claim that people who code in their spare time are liabilities rather than assets. Second paragraph is a claim that the tech industry as a whole should recognize this, and take steps to make sure there aren't too many around. That's not actually arguing for firing (I mean, it might be arguing for that, but not necessarily), but it's at a minimum…

'Coding in your spare time' isn't quite as extreme as having no life outside of tech. Hey, I code a bit in my spare time too, so let me clarify. It's the people who don't do anything else but code that I've, in my experience, had real issues with - they might make great computer scientists, but as a group they're not very good in a team of software developers. Arrogance, problems cooperating with others, excessive ni…

>>But I strongly suspect that if interviewers didn't glorify the obsessive 24/7 coder

Software industry isn't the first or the last place you will see this.

The world as a whole is giant stack ranking system. Every thing from college admissions to interviews is basically a comparative process, sort of a close-to-merit ecosystem where those who put above average effort, get above average returns.

And hubris isn't new to tech. Doctors, Politicians, in fact hubris is a dominant psychological trait among top people in any field.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#173
post #30

The memo was making the point that because men have more affinity to things than women, Google should not try for a 50/50 balance between men and women. The author here says that she enjoyed her work but left because the predominant male co-workers had affinity to things and couldn't relate with them. If anything the author makes a case for Google's current strategy of striving for 50/50 men women balance, since that…

"At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people. I liked the work. But I was never going to like it enough to blow a weekend doing more of it for free. Which meant that I was never going to be as good at that job as the guys around me."

The Bloomberg writer says that she left not because she couldn't relate to her coworkers, but because she was "never going to be as good" as those around her, because the work itself was not as interesting to her as it was to them.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#174
post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

>>I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby, but in CS/SWE, you're evaluated by your hobbie-contributions on GitHub, your postings to HackerNews, etc.

There is no dearth of doctors who volunteer to serve for International Red Cross, Doctors beyond borders, or like in my country(India)-- Go to far away villages and set up diabetes, thyroid and cataract camps to help treat people for free.

Many lawyers routinely do volunteer work for many causes that can't afford legal work.

The biggest reason I go the mechanic close to my home to get my motorcycle fixed, is because he seems to be insanely passionate about it and in his spare time(Usually late nights, in a job which is physically taxing) resurrects vintage motor cycles for sheer passion.

Its not exactly wrong to be hard working and passionate about something.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#175
post #133

> James Damore should probably have used fewer words with high negative emotional indices, when more neutral ones were available. But he was basically making the same point that I am: that women seem to have less interest in working with inanimate objects, and that ignoring this is going to lead to a lot of useless or even counterproductive diversity initiatives. Hard to take this piece seriously. I've worked in tech…

I am unsure what working with "things" means, but when the OP got out of tech, she went into policy journalism.

"So I went to business school, and eventually I landed myself in the kind of career that I was happy to do on weekends, and nights, and most of my other time... My field, policy journalism...."

So for whatever reason, it seems that in her mind, journalism is less about working with "things" than tech work is.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#176
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said you have to be obsessive, but it helps.

No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself. The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be.

I hear this a lot about building products for others and that you need to have a divers team.

1. When you are building the back end of an online shop you don't care if that shop is for women's (makeup shop) or men (guns shop). When you build breaks for cars you don't care if the car is for women's or men.

2. You don't build a product base only on the experience of one person. You go and ask your target demographics what they want from your product. I am a man but I can't speak for all men.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#177
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law and medicine are high status jobs, with a lot of people interactions. Yes, programmers have meetings. Not the same level of interaction as medicine, by a long stretch. There are many TV shows glorifying medicine and law. How many TV shows glorify the job of a programmer? How would you make a TV show glorifying the job of a programmer?

So why do young men study CS in college if programmers aren't glorified? Not to mention that being a "nerd" and "computer whiz" has never been a culturally attractive label, no matter what people might say today.

[deleted]

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#178
post #8

Another very reasonable article on the topic. I'm sure it will soon be [flagged] just like the other one since it doesn't support the "Damore is an ignorant, sexist pig" narrative: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973059

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? Bad as these trainwreck threads are, doing that makes them worse.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#179
post #41

As a trans woman in tech, who was also raised in a very gender normative environment (i.e. I was expected to conform to gender norms for boys as a child), I certainly see her point. I got into technology a child mostly because that what I could do within the environment's "boy" social role. Fast forward a couple of decades, and relative to pretty much all cis women of the same age, I have many more years of experienc…

Holy stereotypes, batman. > Women can be great engineers, we just rarely care to become them How do you presume to know what the majority of women care to be? I'm a woman, and I want to be a great engineer. I was extremely fortunate to grow up in an environment with a female technical role model (my mom), so I easily saw myself going this way, despite the societal emphasis on empathetic skills the rest of the world e…

Allow me to clarify some things in my post:

I intentionally worked on the basis of stereotypes or generalisations. If 60% of group A wants prefers X over Y while only 40% of group B prefers X over Y, it's accurate to speak in general terms, even if there are many individual exceptions. Any discussion of women in technology _in general_, as opposed to individual women in tech, inherently relies on the ability to make generalisations.

As to how I presume it, I was basing my thoughts on the the science of gender differences. Take a look for example here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38061313_Men_and_Th...

In particular, "Results showed that men prefer working with things and women prefer working with people, producing a large effect size (d = 0.93) on the Things-People dimension."

By "care to become them", I meant less the _desire_ to be a good engineer, and more _actually_ enjoying the hours spent in lone engineering. It's one thing to want to be a good engineer in the abstract, or to enjoy holding an engineering role at a company (and some engineering roles in some company cultures are much more people-oriented than other engineering roles), and it's another thing to be somebody who would happily spend a weekend understanding some algorithm, and evenings developing some new open source library as a side project. There are definitely some women who will enjoy these over the alternatives, but not many, and far fewer than there are men, as shown by the huge differences in the Things-People dimension and the huge differences in how many men versus women actually do those things.

And I'll speak just for myself: sitting away at a screen chopping away at some problem often just isn't emotionally fulfilling. And I don't think women who are not engineers really envy those who spend their time this way.

I definitely support initiatives to expose more girls and women to technology, and to raise the profiles of minority group role models in tech. And perhaps the lesson of the Things-People difference is not that engineering isn't for most women, but rather that engineering needs to be done in a more emotionally connected and social way, for example with pair programming.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#180
post #34

I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail. At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people…

Also, just because one male engineer built a network in his weekend doesn't mean we all do. I spend my weekends doing stuff with my kids.

Well, not last week, when I went to SHA-2017, but there was a surprising number of children there. 10% someone claimed, which is way more than I'd ever seen at previous hacker festivals. Clearly nerds and hackers are having love lives and kids these days. And although the majority was absolutely typical white male nerds like me, there were also a lot of women.

And that's the core issue, I think. It doesn't have to be a perfect 50/50 split, but women and minorities do have to be welcome. Explicitly so, if there's any history of sexism and prejudice. If women leave the industry because they don't like the content of the work itself, that's fine. But if they leave because they don't like their co-workers or the atmosphere, then you've got a culture problem.

Post reply on HN