As an aside, I noticed that many of the negative or outraged comments about Damore's memo stem from some inability to grasp the difference between the statements:
"Men are more skilled"
and
"More men are skilled"
Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
131–140 of 872 posts
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
This implies suicide and homicide are done primarily by stupid people by rhetoric?
Yes. Committing homicide is an irrational and maladaptive (i.e. stupid) thing to do in a peaceful 21st century society. Committing suicide is an irrational and maladaptive thing to do in almost all situations in history.
I'll take this as a teaching opportunity.
There are vast amounts of research pointing to the link between mental illness and suicide. Suicidal ideation is a classic symptom of depression, and depression is a recognized scientifically by many factors including lowered serotonin and Dopamine.
Not only that but there is evidence that suicide has genetic factors also documented and actively researched.
I challenge anyone to provide proof that suicide is caused by stupidity.
The parent comment is right in that suicide is irrational because sufferers of depression are not operating rationally, but from a sense of profound pain, and many sufferers do use maladaptive techniques such as drug an alcohol abuse to cope.
Anyone who calls people who commit suicide "stupid" is wrong and incredibly ignorant/hostile to what many people with mental illness suffer from even though the research is extensive and an entire medical and scientific community are actively working together and in agreement. This kind of sentiment and hostility lead to people not seeking the help they absolutely need.
If you are suffering from suicidal thoughts, please seek help immediately. Mental illness is treatable and the medication and non-medical treatments alike are incredibly effective.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#133Certainly much better than a lot of the outrage that's been going on. A couple of nits: > I know most of Google’s work is people-centric. Hmmm...is that really so? Last I checked a lot of Google's code output and value-generation is backend-y, with very little interaction with humans. Google is also notoriously bad-mediocre at UX, though this has improved lately. > Assuming that job skills and performance can be dedu…
> Last I checked a lot of Google's code output and value-generation is backend-y, with very little interaction with humans.
Honest question: When was the last time you checked Google's code output and how it was accomplished? Have you worked at Google for an extended period?
I've worked at Google for many years, on more projects than one can count on 2 hands, and in my experience this commonly held stereotype about working here couldn't be more wrong.
First, there is a ton of code written all over the stack from backend through UI, and most engineers are expected to be able to work on code from the UI through to the backend. This was true from the early days through today. It's been the case on every project I've worked on here: One quarter I work on the data pipeline, next quarter I work on an UI feature, sometimes both simultaneously.
But even if you don't write a line of UI code, any non-trivial system created at Google requires a lot of human interaction for:
- requirements gathering and design
- code reviews
- justifying resource requests
- coordinating access to services that you depend on
- suggesting, negotiating, and advocating for improvements to those services
- etc, etc.
It's very difficult, if not impossible, to leverage Google's environment to succeed without a lot of human interaction.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mother nature does seem to roll the dice more when it comes to men. People then look at the outliers to the right and scream sexism while completely ignoring all the outliers to the left. There are many more profoundly stupid men than women. Men are incarcerated at a higher rate. Men kill themselves at 3x the rate of women. Yet this is quietly accepted.
This implies suicide and homicide are done primarily by stupid people by rhetoric?
Alternative reading: being stupid, getting incarcerated and committing suicide are all consequences of being an outlier at the negative end of the bell curve, where men are overrepresented due to higher variance of the respective trait.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#135I like the discussion. I think the point about software being significantly "people centric" is a bit off base and betrays the authors lack of experience in the field. Working with people is certainly part of the job and in some roles maybe a large portion of the work. Being a good communicator is an important part of being a good developer, but it doesn't make you a good developer. Being a talented and experienced p…
That's a nice theory, but I fail to see any evidence of it. I see lots of people cap out at senior engineer, cause that's how far you can get without having strong technical skills. Staff engineers, tech leads, and managers all get there because they're good communicators, and tbh, in those roles, their engineering skills are secondary.
I see lots of people cap out at senior engineer
What's wrong with that? The majority of software engineers are senior engineer or below, any skill you only need to make it past that level clearly can't be considered core to the job.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. Committing homicide is an irrational and maladaptive (i.e. stupid) thing to do in a peaceful 21st century society. Committing suicide is an irrational and maladaptive thing to do in almost all situations in history.
Maybe one has a temporary problem (depression) that pushes them to commit suicide. That doesn't mean they're stupid. Robin Williams was definitely not stupid, yet he commited suicide. Terry Pratchett was also diagnosed with Parkinson's disease and had contemplated the idea of assisted suicide in a country where this is legal (Switzerland).
Robin Williams had Lewy body dementia [0], which almost certainly contributed to his choice.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mother nature does seem to roll the dice more when it comes to men. People then look at the outliers to the right and scream sexism while completely ignoring all the outliers to the left. There are many more profoundly stupid men than women. Men are incarcerated at a higher rate. Men kill themselves at 3x the rate of women. Yet this is quietly accepted.
Women have a much higher level of attempted suicide, possibly 3x as often as men. [1] I once heard a theory that women don't die from suicide as often because they tend to use less violent means of suicide. For example, if you swallow a bottle of pills you could survive or change your mind a few minutes later and get your stomach pumped, but this rarely applies to shooting yourself in the head. 1. https://afsp.org/ab…
"While males are 4 times more likely than females to die by suicide, females attempt suicide 3 times as often as males."
So a suicide attempt by a man is 12x more likely to succeed than one by a woman.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#138IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…
EDIT: Removed comment. See better response below.
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#139This article also has a few problems > I believe for example if it wasn’t for biases and unequal opportunities, then the higher ranks in science and politics would be dominated by women. Hence, aiming at a 50-50 representation gives men an unfair advantage. I challenge you to provide any evidence to the contrary. Claim bearers are burdened with proof. Otherwise I can say 'I claim it is not so and if you believe other…
> Claim bearers are burdened with proof. I think that was her point...
the burden of proof is on her
Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's possible to have a discussion about these issues today. It's not rational to give special preference and excessive leeway to discussion that isn't actually fact based (and is in many ways based on nothing related to facts). Well, that's great, because his points on gender differences are actually extensively backed by research. When he's talking about that, he isn't talking about what should be or what can be…
There's a penalty in society and your career for being an asshole. If you do something to make yourself wildly unpopular at work, even if it's well within the lines technically, you might be out of a job. The issue is that most people at Google don't want to work with this guy. That makes for a distraction, not to mention the obvious legal risk if the engineer ever interacts with a woman or minority at Google again.…
> There's a penalty in society and your career for being an asshole.
Partially true, Gawker staff thrived on being assholes until they got the Hogan Leg Drop. Are you implying that Damore was an asshole, though? How so?
> That makes for a distraction, not to mention the obvious legal risk if the engineer ever interacts with a woman or minority at Google again.
What about the legal risk of institutionalized discriminatory hiring and career advancement practices?
> You can have all the opinions you want
Thanks.
> think women belong in the kitchen, hell, be a raging neo-Nazi, but please don't broadcast that shit at work.
Oh, did he broadcast any of those kinds of ideas or political leanings?
> If you don't like that Google's promoting diversity, there are ways to make your voice heard like a normal adult.
Like, for example, attempting to discuss a topic?
> I would be livid if I got a link to a doc like this.
http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-div...
> Here we're busting our asses, and this guy has the gall, time, and energy to write a lengthy essay version of /r/theredpill and put it on a company server.
Have you even browsed that subreddit? Damore's views are nowhere even near in the same side of the political spectrum