Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you don't build roads, people will still come. Instead of having more roads = more cars you end up with same road = more cars, which is not ideal. That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing. > Personally, I think California's HSR project is stupid and the money could be better spent on regional light rail plus conventional rail between metro areas. But, the HSR project is…
>That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing. It's definitely empirically true. I've watched it happen for decades. There are certainly new cars on the road, but they would have been there anyway, for the most part. If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not. Now, I'd rather we had enough rail to handle all those p…
Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
61–70 of 79 posts
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#62Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#63> We can fund this by stopping the high-speed rail, and spend the $68+ billion we are planning to spend on that on better local rapid transit systems, improved bus lines, and new roads instead This proposal would replace a real and coming solution (HSR) with vague proposals ("improved bus line") and tech that may not pan out for years if ever ("electric airplanes"). I'm skeptical. The HSR will provide a significant i…
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#64The deeply ironic thing about California HSR is that it's basically going to be most useful for business travelers. Who the hell else needs to go from SF to LA on any regular basis? If you spent that money on regional rail instead, you might actually help out working class people. In cities like New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago, tons of middle class people ride the train to/from what used to be streetcar suburbs.…
The stupid thing is that those business travelers won't use the rail line, they'll happily chug along in their self-driving Teslas and ultra comfy Audis/Mercedes/BMWs. Toronto just dealt with this. We built a rail line that goes from our international airport right into the heart of the downtown. The plan was that business travelers could get off the plane, get on the train, and go right into the city without a car.…
The few times I've used it, the train was pretty full (with people standing). Maybe I got seriously lucky.
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
The stupid thing is that those business travelers won't use the rail line, they'll happily chug along in their self-driving Teslas and ultra comfy Audis/Mercedes/BMWs. Toronto just dealt with this. We built a rail line that goes from our international airport right into the heart of the downtown. The plan was that business travelers could get off the plane, get on the train, and go right into the city without a car.…
> Nobody uses it The few times I've used it, the train was pretty full (with people standing). Maybe I got seriously lucky.
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#66I'd be happy just to see traffic lights that actually factor traffic congestion. One of my peeves is when a traffic light makes me and a whole line of cars waste brakes to stop then waste gas to sit at a red light just to let one car go when the efficient option would have been to let the line of cars travelling 50mph go first, THEN let the loner who's already stopped go afterwards. It's a problem I've wanted to solv…
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-smar...
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#67> If we unclog our infrastructure we can spread out to more of the state and increase the supply of developable land. There is lots of land in this state, but only a small amount is close to jobs.
I disagree. The trick is not to simply increase the supply of "buildable" land. That way, the main effect would be to increase sprawl. Jobs are usually in already-dense areas, in which most land has already been developed.
A different, perhaps smarter plan could be to do what some small companies are doing in Barcelona: allow buildings to add 1-2 floors at the top. It increases density, and housing supply.
> If we make it easier to quickly travel longer distances in/out of work hubs, the intense demand for housing can be diffused to communities that can handle it.
I don't see how this passage is related to the previous one. Alleviating traffic? Good luck. Until we have 90% or more driverless cars, traffic is not going to change.
> We should double our annual infrastructure budget. We can fund this by stopping the high-speed rail, and spend the $68+ billion we are planning to spend on that on better local rapid transit systems, improved bus lines, and new roads instead. This will allow people to live in more affordable housing and have a better quality of life.
Yes, $68 Billion can be spent much better, I agree. But investing them in a generic "infrastructure" is not going to solve the problem at all.
I'll give you one of many possible examples: when you build an additional highway lane, traffic temporarily goes down. On average, after 6.5 years, traffic is back to the original level (everything else being equal). You can actually reduce traffic by REDUCING the amount of roads available, as long as the resulting roadmap is "simpler" to navigate for human drivers. Sometimes, you get less traffic accidents by REMOVING road signs. Etc. Etc.
> A lot more people need this more than they need a train from LA to SF. In any case, the train is yesterday’s technology. By the time it’s completed, we will have new and much better technology, like high-speed self-driving cars, electric airplanes, and maybe even Hyperloops.
We already have one of the best transportation systems that could be invented, in terms of price-performance: bicycles. We don't need to trouble HyperLoops and the like.
But I agree that investing in trains is not the right thing to do.
In essence, what Sam is suggesting is to divert that $68B to something smarter: on this, I wholeheartedly agree.
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Short term - more buses, alternate day driving, increase incentives for no car ownership (tax rebate), increase penalties for car ownership (increase parking fees/fines, increase number of no-parking tow-away zones). Medium term - Build bike lanes, convert streets to promenades, build light rail, build traffic calmers (narrow streets, speed bumps, lane bollards) Long term - Marketing programs to encourage different b…
It must be cool to have no desire for stability in your life or the life of your spouse and offspring. Certainly I'd find that lifestyle less difficult to plan moves around. Of course, I'd also find it fulfilling and depressing.
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
>That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing. It's definitely empirically true. I've watched it happen for decades. There are certainly new cars on the road, but they would have been there anyway, for the most part. If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not. Now, I'd rather we had enough rail to handle all those p…
It's definitely empirically true, and you've got a vague anecdote to prove it.
Re: Petition for Smarter Infrastructure
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you don't build roads, people will still come. Instead of having more roads = more cars you end up with same road = more cars, which is not ideal. That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing. > Personally, I think California's HSR project is stupid and the money could be better spent on regional light rail plus conventional rail between metro areas. But, the HSR project is…
>That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing. It's definitely empirically true. I've watched it happen for decades. There are certainly new cars on the road, but they would have been there anyway, for the most part. If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not. Now, I'd rather we had enough rail to handle all those p…
Your unsupported speculation of what you expect would have been true in a counterfactual situation is not support for a claim of empirical truth.
> If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not.
People are not the same thing as the car trips; whether the same number of people would have been present with less road capacity is a different question than whether the number of car trips would have been.