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How big oil will die

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Re: How big oil will die

#91
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars can have ICE's strapped onto them, and it works really well. The Chevy Volt, for instance, is perfectly designed to handle the situation you described. It gives you 52ish miles of all electric range, so you can commute and grab groceries and do all of your normal driving on pure electricity. And for various road trips, it still gets 40-ish MPG for hundreds of miles without any electricity needed. It als…

I agree wholeheartedly with you and my next vehicle will be a plug in hybrid. That said, that isn't what the author is saying. He's saying that all private cars will go away because it will be so much cheaper to just call a self driving electric and I don't see it happening because people will never call a self driving car to the trailhead of a 14'er. It is just so much more convenient to have your own (PHEV).

> because people will never call a self driving car to the trailhead of a 14'er.

I disagree with this. Why not? Hell, reserve the car for two weeks and have it sit there at the trail parking lot, if you want the old school experience. Still cheaper (for you, for the environment) than full time owning a car which is unused 90% of the time.

Re: How big oil will die

#92
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two hours of driving is half a Tesla's capacity, so that scenario is already solved. It's not going to get any less solved over time. People will own cars individually for the same reason that people own horses now - they enable a specific kind of activity, or a native appreciation for the object in itself. Certainly motorsport is not going to die any time soon. What percentage of automobiles are used for touring and…

A Tesla model 3 has a listed range of 220 miles and it declines in winter and with hills. Therefore I doubt one could actually go from downtown Denver to Vail (~95 miles) for a day of skiing and back in a day without charging at the resort. It certainly couldn't make it from Denver to Salida, CO (~140 miles) for a day of white water rafting without charging during the day. Sure businesses could install chargers in th…

The extended range model 3 is 310 miles.

You go there, charge it up whilst you're white water rafting and then drive back.

Re: How big oil will die

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will never call a self driving car to the trailhead of a 14'er. As a long distance backpacker I'd love to be able to get a ride to and from the trail at a reasonable price. Of course, we'd also need better cell coverage.

Almost everywhere seems to have better cell coverage than the worlds richest country. Maybe electric Uber will mean this needs to be fixed.

If by "almost everywhere" you mean Europe or Japan, please compare population density. If most of the US had the population density of Northern Europe, or US northeast, or Silicon Valley, it would have similar almost-omnipresent coverage.

US West is more like Siberia, or Canada 100 miles north from the border. There are not enough subscribers to economically cover with GSM / LTE, except in cities and along major roads.

Re: How big oil will die

#94
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everywhere seems to have better cell coverage than the worlds richest country. Maybe electric Uber will mean this needs to be fixed.

If by "almost everywhere" you mean Europe or Japan, please compare population density. If most of the US had the population density of Northern Europe, or US northeast, or Silicon Valley, it would have similar almost-omnipresent coverage. US West is more like Siberia, or Canada 100 miles north from the border. There are not enough subscribers to economically cover with GSM / LTE, except in cities and along major road…

I'm talking about places like India or even Myanmar. To be fair India has probably a much greater population density than the US so maybe you are correct.

Re: How big oil will die

#95
Pardon my coarseness, but the author has his head so far up his own ass as he can’t tell whether the sun is up or down. I say this as a person who ordered a Nissan Leaf the first day they were available, has way too many shares of TSLA in their portfolio, and would love nothing more than watch Exxon Mobile go out of business. But they won’t be dismantling the Keystone pipeline any time soon, let alone in eight years.

Sure, ICEs are complex. But it is a known complexity. So well known that our 80K Scion xB has never had the valve cover off (IOW, nothing internal to the engine has broken). In fact, we’ve done nothing to it but tires and oil. Having never done it, from the shop manual I’d guess I could have the engine of our 200K mile VW camper van on the ground in about 30 minutes, have it rebuild over a weekend, and it’s good for another 100K miles. Complicated though they might be, ordinary humans can figure them out. Hell, the inner workings of an Intel CPU surpassed my understanding years ago, but they still sell millions of them, and my ignorance doesn’t stop me from writing software for them.

Look at the list of common repairs in the article. Almost all of them have one thing in common: the repairs are dictated by emissions testing, not because they’ll leave you at the side of the road. O2 sensor? The car is likely to still run, just poorly. The driver might not even notice. Catalytic converter? Unless it’s plugged from flooding the engine (raw gas will plug a cat), the car will still run. And yada yada for the rest. Of the items on the list, only an ignition coil is going to leave you at the side of the road. Let me put another way: I like our old VW because it gives an opportunity to still work on cars once in a while. The rest of our vehicles, modern cars and motorcycles all, are fucking appliances that don’t need the tender care of an old mechanic. So let’s discard the “ICE cars are complex and unreliable” argument, shall we? And there’s more to the ICE world than passenger cars, as you won’t be plowing a field with an electric tractor anytime soon.

Using a Prius as an argument for EVs is just dumb, because you know what else a Prius has under the hood beside an electric motor? So the more one makes the case with the longevity of a Prius, the more one argues that ICEs are pretty reliable.

By the time I got to the self-driving car portion, I checked out. In six years, new car sales will drop to near zero? That’s not an argument worth having, because you’re arguing with a kook.

Re: How big oil will die

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars can have ICE's strapped onto them, and it works really well. The Chevy Volt, for instance, is perfectly designed to handle the situation you described. It gives you 52ish miles of all electric range, so you can commute and grab groceries and do all of your normal driving on pure electricity. And for various road trips, it still gets 40-ish MPG for hundreds of miles without any electricity needed. It als…

> It also needs zero fancy charging infrastructure. Have a regular US household power outlet anywhere in your garage or home exterior? Then you have everything you need to charge it up every night. There will be significant additional load on the Electric grid. This will require the electric grid to be overhauled around the country. Couple this with "smart grid" mandates & you have yet another channel for government…

> There will be significant additional load on the Electric grid.

True, but people will be charging their cars most often when they're asleep, so it's less of an impact on peak load. It may be more of a base load/duty cycle impact.

However, even then, this type of load is also easily interruptible and automatically controlled by modern hardware. This makes it more serviceable with renewable power, more easy to make price-sensitive, and more able to provide demand response. (Potentially to the extent of being able to put power back into the grid and act as a negative load.)

(That said, the original idea of a household outlet is a stretch... I understand charging a Tesla at 120V/15A to be glacially slow.)

Re: How big oil will die

#97
post #28

Every time I see someone make the argument that "all cars will be electric by 20XX" I feel like they are incredibly sheltered from rural life. The US is HUGE! Sure the majority of commuting could be replaced by electric cars but I've seen no evidence of them being able to replace ICEs for the "I want to go skiing/kayaking/hiking (pick an activity where your car sits on the side of the road all day) 2 hours away and r…

Electric cars can have ICE's strapped onto them, and it works really well. The Chevy Volt, for instance, is perfectly designed to handle the situation you described. It gives you 52ish miles of all electric range, so you can commute and grab groceries and do all of your normal driving on pure electricity. And for various road trips, it still gets 40-ish MPG for hundreds of miles without any electricity needed. It als…

> Have a regular US household power outlet anywhere in your garage or home exterior?

The irony here is that people living in cities, who would most benefit from the advantages of EVs, are also more likely to live in Condos or Apartments, many of which do not have outlets in their garage.

I had to rule out an EV purchase for just that reason.

Re: How big oil will die

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also needs zero fancy charging infrastructure. Have a regular US household power outlet anywhere in your garage or home exterior? Then you have everything you need to charge it up every night. There will be significant additional load on the Electric grid. This will require the electric grid to be overhauled around the country. Couple this with "smart grid" mandates & you have yet another channel for government…

> There will be significant additional load on the Electric grid. This will require the electric grid to be overhauled around the country. Two electric cars in a household, both charging simultaneously, uses less electricity combined than just one standard clothes dryer or one central air conditioner -- the kind of appliances everyone already has in their home and runs regularly. It's not nothing of course. And some…

1400 watts for a plug in hybrid or someone that doesn't drive longer distances everyday.

For full electric with higher mileage 5,000-10,000 watts would be a lot more likely (Tesla sells a 17 KW charger).

Re: How big oil will die

#99
post #28

Every time I see someone make the argument that "all cars will be electric by 20XX" I feel like they are incredibly sheltered from rural life. The US is HUGE! Sure the majority of commuting could be replaced by electric cars but I've seen no evidence of them being able to replace ICEs for the "I want to go skiing/kayaking/hiking (pick an activity where your car sits on the side of the road all day) 2 hours away and r…

One consideration is that if fossil fuel cars drop to a very low level in cities, the spending put into maintaining the fossil fuel infrastructure might become unsustainable. That would in turn drive up the price in rural area as well. In the end, it is very expensive to maintain parallel infrastructures as such and densely populated cities (unfortunately maybe) drive the trend of which infrastructure is going to win…

I suspect electric infrastructure is already more widespread in rural areas than gas stations.

How many houses are next to a gas station? How many houses away from these can sustain 2kW load of their electric supply at night?

Re: How big oil will die

#100
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and my next vehicle will be a plug in hybrid. That said, that isn't what the author is saying. He's saying that all private cars will go away because it will be so much cheaper to just call a self driving electric and I don't see it happening because people will never call a self driving car to the trailhead of a 14'er. It is just so much more convenient to have your own (PHEV).

> people will never call a self driving car to the trailhead of a 14'er. As a long distance backpacker I'd love to be able to get a ride to and from the trail at a reasonable price. Of course, we'd also need better cell coverage.

Or a massive satellite internet constellation that provides internet access everywhere [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_satellite_constellation

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