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Google’s War Over the Sexes

nytimes.com

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Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#11

Post by mpweiher »

seaknoll wrote: post #3

Maybe this isn't the public perception of tech jobs, but as a software engineer at my current company I collaborate far more than I did in my previous career as a consultant, have more opportunities to be creative, and get an extremely flexible schedule. Even if you accept that there are biological differences between the sexes, the hypothesis that stereotypically female attributes/desires are not as compatible with…

First, see Jordan Peterson's interview with James Damore, where he goes through the memo almost line-by-line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&spfreload=10

Second, he doesn't say that "female attributes/desires are not as compatible with tech jobs", at least not as you define them.

These are his suggestions for improving diversity:

"Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this). ● Women on average are more cooperative ○ Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive. Recent updates to Perf may be doing this to an extent, but maybe there's more we can do. "

You are saying this is already the case at your workplace. Awesome, you already have what he suggests. Why is what he suggest wrong-headed??

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#12

Post by danso »

johansch wrote: post #2

Wow. A balanced mainstream story on the topic.

FWIW, it's a column by Ross Douthat, regarded as one of the NYT's conservative opinion writers: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/business/media/12douthat.h...

(Not that columns can't be well-reported stories in their own right)

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#14

Post by johansch »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #7
johansch wrote: post #2

Wow. A balanced mainstream story on the topic.

I'm impressed, too. Apart from the fact that it links to the crippled Gizmodo version of the memo (they still have the guts to call it 'full' in the title) instead of the real one https://diversitymemo.com/ . The references make the whole difference.

This NYT reporter filed the first article on the topic:

https://twitter.com/daiwaka/

His report (and tweeting) was so partisan that I got really concerned with the integrity of the NYT as a whole. This new piece restores some of my confidence in them, even though it is just an opinion piece.'

Btw - is it just me, or is he way too friendly with the people running the company he is assigned to report on?

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#15

Post by mpweiher »

freeone3000 wrote: post #10
emtel wrote: post #6

> But since the usual way to reintegrate the sexes is to have them marry one another and raise kids, what Silicon Valley probably needs right now more than either workplace anti-microaggression training or an alt-right underground is a basic friendliness to family, pregnancy and child rearing. Prediction: this will be viciously misinterpreted on twitter as Douthat calling for women to stay at home and raise babies.

He's calling for a reintegration of the sexes through marriage and children. While I wouldn't put words in his mouth as to "stay at home", he is for sure calling on women to raise babies. His repeated references to women as childbearers in the following paragraph don't help. The author appears to be stating that the solution to sexism is to have women marry the sexists and have their babies.

> His repeated references to women as childbearers

Pardon me, but this is in(s)ane.

WHO ELSE BUT WOMEN BEARS CHILDREN?

Apologies, but I had to get that out of my system.

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#16

Post by DataWorker »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8

The most troubling thing about this whole issue for me is the weird fetish about "biology" on both sides of the debate. As Mr. Hume told us a few hundred years ago, nature simply is , and doesn't tell us what ought to be . As such I have trouble understanding why we are approaching the issue from this angle. Instead of obsessing about biology, we should care about how we want our workplaces to look. And I would welco…

Did you read the thing? You have the greatest gender balance in comp sci in the least egalitarian societies. There's a body of scientific literature you could consult if you wanted the diversity you claim to want.

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#17

Post by seaknoll »

mpweiher wrote: post #11
seaknoll wrote: post #3

Maybe this isn't the public perception of tech jobs, but as a software engineer at my current company I collaborate far more than I did in my previous career as a consultant, have more opportunities to be creative, and get an extremely flexible schedule. Even if you accept that there are biological differences between the sexes, the hypothesis that stereotypically female attributes/desires are not as compatible with…

First, see Jordan Peterson's interview with James Damore, where he goes through the memo almost line-by-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&spfreload=10 Second, he doesn't say that "female attributes/desires are not as compatible with tech jobs", at least not as you define them. These are his suggestions for improving diversity: "Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We c…

I'm saying that IMO, the very nature of the job is compatible with the traits that he says are more common in women. I don't think that my company is an outlier here.

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#18

Post by [deleted] »

mpweiher wrote: post #11
seaknoll wrote: post #3

Maybe this isn't the public perception of tech jobs, but as a software engineer at my current company I collaborate far more than I did in my previous career as a consultant, have more opportunities to be creative, and get an extremely flexible schedule. Even if you accept that there are biological differences between the sexes, the hypothesis that stereotypically female attributes/desires are not as compatible with…

First, see Jordan Peterson's interview with James Damore, where he goes through the memo almost line-by-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&spfreload=10 Second, he doesn't say that "female attributes/desires are not as compatible with tech jobs", at least not as you define them. These are his suggestions for improving diversity: "Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We c…

[deleted]

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#19

Post by gthtjtkt »

mpweiher wrote: post #11
seaknoll wrote: post #3

Maybe this isn't the public perception of tech jobs, but as a software engineer at my current company I collaborate far more than I did in my previous career as a consultant, have more opportunities to be creative, and get an extremely flexible schedule. Even if you accept that there are biological differences between the sexes, the hypothesis that stereotypically female attributes/desires are not as compatible with…

First, see Jordan Peterson's interview with James Damore, where he goes through the memo almost line-by-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&spfreload=10 Second, he doesn't say that "female attributes/desires are not as compatible with tech jobs", at least not as you define them. These are his suggestions for improving diversity: "Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We c…

> Second, he doesn't say that "female attributes/desires are not as compatible with tech jobs", at least not as you define them.

But that's what I read in all the Tweets! Are you telling me their self-righteous outrage was really just opportunistic moral grandstanding!? It can't be true!

/s

Seriously, these people are all just proving his point. Ignore the facts, call him sexist, get him fired, then move on to the next target.

Re: Google’s War Over the Sexes

#20

Post by panzer_wyrm »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8

The most troubling thing about this whole issue for me is the weird fetish about "biology" on both sides of the debate. As Mr. Hume told us a few hundred years ago, nature simply is , and doesn't tell us what ought to be . As such I have trouble understanding why we are approaching the issue from this angle. Instead of obsessing about biology, we should care about how we want our workplaces to look. And I would welco…

What percentage of Sayeret Matkal are women?
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