Why Parents Hate Parenting • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#101

Post by jtheory » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 12:01 AM UTC

jtheory wrote: post #94

axod wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Veruca Salt is spoiled by her parents who simply love her and so give her everything she asks for." That's not love. That's the point Roald Dahl is making (IMHO). The only family in the story that really knows and understands what love is, is Charlies' family. He is the richest boy in the world, because he has a family that truly loves him. Even though they are financially poor. Love isn't about giving people wha…

This is trivially true: "Love isn't about giving people what they ask for, it's about giving them what is best for them in the long run." ...but the more I learn, the more I find that my intuition has been often wrong on "what's best for them in the long run". Usually just in subtle ways, but sometimes in larger ones. Being a relaxed parent is good advice, though that was more how I was a good uncle (but I'm learning…

The things I learn from talking with other parents (the smart/creative ones) and reading are usually ways to expand my possible responses to any situation, or insights into what's happening in a kid's head that we easily misinterpret. I totally agree, children can be dramatically different... but if you read books, go to workshops, etc. as ways to expand your options (rather than seeking a prescription to follow even when it feels wrong... intuition is still valuable!), you can get a lot of value.

I sat in a parents' workshop that covered how to handle the relatively-common "disaster" experience where a child throws a tantrum in the grocery store because the parent won't give them the toy or candy they wanted.

I was already opposed to any physical punishment (and I guess there's the option of leaving your cart and taking them out to the car to wait it out), and obviously giving in is bad because it teaches the kid that screaming in public works. But the other parents had tons of things I hadn't thought of, like:

respond with sympathy for the child's frustration -- they really want something they can't have -- and instead of being angry give them (within reason) space & time to express it

before the tantrum, respond to the demand by talking to the child about all the things you'd like to get, but can't

before even entering the store, have established & reasonable rules about what the child can pick out for themselves, i.e., one thing, under X euros, can't be candy if last trip they got candy

There were others as well that I forget now.. it was all food for thought, though.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#102

Post by btilly » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 12:03 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #88

btilly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello. I am a parent. I am quite familiar with how schizophrenic you will quickly become if you try to do what everyone else tells you to do. I have put considerable thought into corporal punishment. And in my case the thought is both theoretical and practical. While I grant that there are lots of people who are against corporal punishment as a matter of political correctness, there are also very good reasons not to…

If you hit your kid, your kid will try hitting other kids. And, according to statistics, they are also more likely to hit other people in their lives, including spouses and their own kids. Your kid will almost certainly hit other kids no matter what you do. (At least if your kid is a boy, I'm not so sure about girls.) Of course you should punish it when it happens, but you shouldn't be surprised, and you certainly sh…

Your kid will almost certainly hit other kids no matter what you do. (At least if your kid is a boy, I'm not so sure about girls.) Of course you should punish it when it happens, but you shouldn't be surprised, and you certainly shouldn't despair that now your kid is going to grow up to be a wife-beater.

I am aware of that, and don't despair. But I'm still going to make common sense steps that reduce the odds of that.

As it turns out, by the time I went to school I was well-behaved enough that I never got detention. I can't give all the credit to corporal punishment for that one... or can I?

According to the statistics, you cannot give credit to corporal punishment for that. There is a great deal of variability in kids, but _on average_ corporal punishment doesn't result in better behavior. (No matter how many people personally believe otherwise for themselves.)

Out of curiosity, what punishments do you give to your kids?

Diversion. Talking to. Counting. Time outs.

Do you have a "reserve" punishment saved up that you've never had to use?

Skipping the regular Friday treat.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#103

Post by jtheory » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 12:30 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #75

Robin_Message wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But things like paternity leave, maternity leave, requiring employers to consider flexible working -- these kind of things Europe is doing are far more family friendly than the republican party. The family values line of "mothers should stay at home" espoused by Pat Robertson et al. probably is better than both parents working, however much childcare you can afford. No reason it has to be the mother though. And the a…

>No reason it has to be the mother though. Breastfeeding. I don't lactate. Now that our youngest is >1yo (as with his elder brother) then we're back to sharing labour and child care + chores 50-50 (in a way that's probably not open to most people). We've chosen this lifestyle and are below the official poverty line in our country because of it. However, the little one is still not completely weaned and so needs conta…

Nature does tend to push the mother into the stay-at-home role, which is why I'm very much in favor of programs to support greater integration of kids into the workplace to try and balance things more towards fairness -- childcare at work (you take your coffee break, the mother takes her breast-feeding break) is one solution. Allowing mothers to work mostly remotely while still breast-feeding is another.

Here in France the approach is well-funded child care that's available for very young babies -- this is a boon to mothers maintaining their careers, but it's certainly bad for breast-feeding more than a couple of months.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#104

Post by axod » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 12:37 AM UTC

jtheory wrote: post #101

jtheory wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is trivially true: "Love isn't about giving people what they ask for, it's about giving them what is best for them in the long run." ...but the more I learn, the more I find that my intuition has been often wrong on "what's best for them in the long run". Usually just in subtle ways, but sometimes in larger ones. Being a relaxed parent is good advice, though that was more how I was a good uncle (but I'm learning…

The things I learn from talking with other parents (the smart/creative ones) and reading are usually ways to expand my possible responses to any situation, or insights into what's happening in a kid's head that we easily misinterpret. I totally agree, children can be dramatically different... but if you read books, go to workshops, etc. as ways to expand your options (rather than seeking a prescription to follow even…

Definitely interesting stuff.

To a certain extent though we get to 'brute-force' a solution. After the 20th tantrum, and the 20th different thing we try, we'll probably find something that works for that particular child. Of course it'll likely be completely different for the next child etc :) but that's half the fun!

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#105

Post by jtheory » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 1:11 AM UTC

steverb wrote: post #24

bobbin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think using pain to control a child's behaviour is good parenting. I'm sorry you where abused.

Yes, because nature doesn't use pain to teach us ever. That's why I can leave my hand on a hot stove until it turns black. There is a difference between corporal punishment/discipline and abuse.

My mother stopped using corporal punishment on us when my older brother (at 3 years old) explained that he was justified in hitting me, because hurting people was okay if they were smaller than you. He was practicing.

Children, even from when they're very little, know the difference between hurting themselves on something hot and you, their parent, intentionally causing them pain. Even if your punishments are consistent, there's no chance they will mistake you for a force of nature.

I imagine that some corporal punishment is better for a kid than letting them run wild, but that's a straw man; simply teaching them non-violently (i.e., through example) how to interact with others has a better result overall than using pain to control them. This makes sense intuitively and is well-supported by research.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#106

Post by sethg » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 1:11 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #72

sethg wrote: post #34

The article has these little asides describing a videotaped interaction between a mother and her son... “I have to get it to the part and then pause it,” says the boy. “No,” says his mother. “You do that after you do your homework.” Not that I haven’t been guilty of the same misparenting myself, but.... If you expect that you can ever get an eight-year-old to walk away from a video and do his homework by persuading h…

>If you expect that you can ever get an eight-year-old to walk away from a video and do his homework by persuading him, you’re setting yourself up for unhappiness. So you let your kids walk all over you?

What epochwolf said: turn the TV off and, if necessary, pick up the child and take him out of the room.

A child with the TV in front of him, being asked to do his homework, is not interested in a reasonable discussion of the house rules; he’s interested in stalling. (Also, if he sees this as a power struggle with Mom, he will not want to surrender.) If his stalling tactic is effective, then you not only extend the period of pointless and frustrating argument in this one instance, but you reinforce, in the kid’s mind, the idea that “turn off the TV” is just background noise that can be ignored with no serious consequences.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#107

Post by euccastro » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 7:04 AM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #16

pragmatic wrote: post #4

Like everything in life, the thought of doing it, trumps the actual doing it. Finishing the basement, writing a novel, building the next great web app, raising kids all seem like great projects to embark on. But it's the dark night of the soul, when you're up for the 10 night in a row (or you have writer's block or you realize you shouldn't have cut that pipe, etc, etc). Life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. Speaking…

Very true. My wife and I are lucky, in a way. She's Italian. Like, born Italian, speaks Italian, lives Italian. Okay, she lives in Montreal, but damnit, call her a Frenchy and she'll punch me hard enough in that spot on the arm that she knows will get a reaction. Anyways, we live next door to her great-grandmother (nona), and below her Mother and Father. I swear, her sisters are over often enough that it's normal. He…

> And I give you an answer: Family.

Here's another one: Community. Where I was raised, Aunt and Mama (as in Granny) used to be flexible titles for whoever was around to help take care of you. Neighbours were often as good as extended family members.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#108

Post by euccastro » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 7:23 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #68

jasonlotito wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as hard as it seems. Patience is key, but it all comes naturally. Really. I was nervous, but honestly, it's rather easy. Yes, having the relatives close by helped. The best way to look at the situation is to remember that people have been having babies for thousands of years under much more difficult situations. Just love the child. Everything else comes naturally. Edit: Oh, and, of course, Congratulations!…

>Just love the child. Everything else comes naturally. I disagree. I agree with your encouraging sentiment but I don't agree that simply loving your child is enough - parenting doesn't come naturally to those who haven't grown up around it. Most people nowadays appear to only have their parents model of parenting to rely on and this appears to lead them to polarise away from how their parents treated them. Watched Ch…

This is besides the point, but you may try playing with some handicap. E.g. starting with no rooks.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#109

Post by euccastro » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 7:55 AM UTC

jtheory wrote: post #99

yason wrote: post #14

Parenting is about showing the kid his boundaries. And by showing the boundaries I don't mean canonically forbidding all nice things and always being "the bad guy". Limits and boundaries have a bad rap in some literature. The concept of boundaries is universal: boundaries don't enforce anyone to choose one option over another: they just enforce one to choose. Showing the kid his boundaries is not an easy undertaking…

Some of this I agree with, but be careful assuming that a child's reason can function like an adult's. Giving them choices sometimes helps them take control of their lives, but sometimes (if they're already cognitively overwhelmed) being forced to choose is an unwanted stress. Absolutely, consistency is important, and putting some thought into what lesson the child is learning from your interaction (often not what yo…

And to play devil's advocate: I think it was Freud who traced his love of books back to a childhood anecdote where his father had this big, shiny, colorful book he despised, so he brought it to young Sigmund and they tore it to pieces together.

Re: Why Parents Hate Parenting

#110

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Jul 08, 2010, 10:38 AM UTC

axod wrote: post #104

jtheory wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things I learn from talking with other parents (the smart/creative ones) and reading are usually ways to expand my possible responses to any situation, or insights into what's happening in a kid's head that we easily misinterpret. I totally agree, children can be dramatically different... but if you read books, go to workshops, etc. as ways to expand your options (rather than seeking a prescription to follow even…

Definitely interesting stuff. To a certain extent though we get to 'brute-force' a solution. After the 20th tantrum, and the 20th different thing we try, we'll probably find something that works for that particular child. Of course it'll likely be completely different for the next child etc :) but that's half the fun!

>Of course it'll likely be completely different for the next child etc :) but that's half the fun!

And the same child the following month ;0)