Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

bizjournals.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 409 posts

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#351

Post by vbuwivbiu »

stale2002 wrote: post #312
rsj_hn wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a developer who has to check in code, then you need a quiet place for focused work. You can try to argue that some developers don't need that, but those who can achieve peak concentration while context switching and talking to others are biological curiosities, if they exist at all. I haven't met anyone like that. Now most employees working in tech companies are not developers. There is a whole "developer…

Hypothetical scenario here: Lets say that you have a 5 minute question, that would save you an hour of work. In a closed/cubicle style office, you may be less willing to bug your expert co-worker. In an open office, it may be perfectly normal to turn to your left, and quickly ask you question. Sure, you are taking time out of your co-worker's day, but even so, on the net whole, asking the question is probably a net b…

save it up and ask them at lunchtime

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#353

Post by Joeri »

rsj_hn wrote: post #309
matthewmacleod wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not simple. I am awfully bored of these “everything is simple, open offices are uniformly awful, everybody should be remote” arguments. Yes - this works for some people, in some workplaces. In other cases, it doesn’t work. I’m fine with my open office space, and I prefer working from an office - which is a bike ride away and better equipped than I am. How about instead we accept that there are almost certain…

If you are a developer who has to check in code, then you need a quiet place for focused work. You can try to argue that some developers don't need that, but those who can achieve peak concentration while context switching and talking to others are biological curiosities, if they exist at all. I haven't met anyone like that. Now most employees working in tech companies are not developers. There is a whole "developer…

those who can achieve peak concentration while context switching and talking to others are biological curiosities, if they exist at all

You've just described everyone who has ever programmed against the clock in a hollywood movie.

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#354

Post by jbergens »

stale2002 wrote: post #312
rsj_hn wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a developer who has to check in code, then you need a quiet place for focused work. You can try to argue that some developers don't need that, but those who can achieve peak concentration while context switching and talking to others are biological curiosities, if they exist at all. I haven't met anyone like that. Now most employees working in tech companies are not developers. There is a whole "developer…

Hypothetical scenario here: Lets say that you have a 5 minute question, that would save you an hour of work. In a closed/cubicle style office, you may be less willing to bug your expert co-worker. In an open office, it may be perfectly normal to turn to your left, and quickly ask you question. Sure, you are taking time out of your co-worker's day, but even so, on the net whole, asking the question is probably a net b…

The main problem is that everyone around you hears the question and the answer. This can create more discussions but it probably disturbs a lot. Especially when you place different teams in the same open space. Suddenly you are disturbed by all kinds of discussions that has very little to do with _your_ job.

I basically think it disturbs more with questions in an open space than when you go over to a cubicle/room.

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#355

Post by jbergens »

pjc50 wrote: post #341
matthewmacleod wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not simple. I am awfully bored of these “everything is simple, open offices are uniformly awful, everybody should be remote” arguments. Yes - this works for some people, in some workplaces. In other cases, it doesn’t work. I’m fine with my open office space, and I prefer working from an office - which is a bike ride away and better equipped than I am. How about instead we accept that there are almost certain…

The trade-off is the medium-sized office: a room containing up to six people who are all part of the same team. You get all the advantages of being able to talk to people, and none of the disadvantages of conversations drifting over from the rest of the office. And there's more of a chance that if your immediate co-workers are discussing something then it's actually relevant to you.

Yes, this can work well. You still have to be careful and not mix people that has to do a lot of phonecalls or loud discussions in the same room as developers.

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#356

Post by jbergens »

cliftonc wrote: post #317
cdkee wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Solutions Engineer and whenever I have to get on a sales call or demo at my desk it's a disaster - it's simply far too loud and too much background noise is heard on the call. This is just one more complaint in a long-list that I have with this arrangement. Makes me miss my cube!

Why not use a headset? They work really well at blocking out background noise (we use the plantronics ones). Worth every cent.

Those don't block out your sound, the others in the same room still hears you and get disturbed.

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#357

Post by bipson »

Everybody arguing for open office plans and stating that they or "some people" thrive in such environments should finally come around to read Peopleware [1].

Although they might base some statements on assumptions I do not fully agree with all the time, and before reading I was had not decided if I was strictly for or against open office plans, their conclusion is spot on: open plans do not foster collaboration or communication. They may cause a constant buzz and seem productive, but nobody will be smart, creative or productive in that environment, compared to a silent, uninterrupted workplace.

All you multitaskers and procrastinators (including me): You are lying to yourself.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-...

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#358

Post by Joeri »

stale2002 wrote: post #312
rsj_hn wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a developer who has to check in code, then you need a quiet place for focused work. You can try to argue that some developers don't need that, but those who can achieve peak concentration while context switching and talking to others are biological curiosities, if they exist at all. I haven't met anyone like that. Now most employees working in tech companies are not developers. There is a whole "developer…

Hypothetical scenario here: Lets say that you have a 5 minute question, that would save you an hour of work. In a closed/cubicle style office, you may be less willing to bug your expert co-worker. In an open office, it may be perfectly normal to turn to your left, and quickly ask you question. Sure, you are taking time out of your co-worker's day, but even so, on the net whole, asking the question is probably a net b…

That's the theory of why open plan is good.

In practice it doesn't pan out that way, because most 5 minute questions don't save that much time (answer was a 2 minute search away), don't take that much time (take much longer), and overall cost much more time (due to loss of flow).

Most (if not all) programmers need a state of flow to write quality code. Achieving flow after an interruption can easily take 15 minutes or more. If the environment discourages a state of flow by having frequent brief interruptions, the quality of the code written in that environment will be poor. If you had the ability to collect the right metrics, you'd probably find that bugs disproportionately are written right after an interruption.

Re: Apple staffers reportedly rebelling against open office plan

#360

Post by bipson »

bipson wrote: post #357

Everybody arguing for open office plans and stating that they or "some people" thrive in such environments should finally come around to read Peopleware [1]. Although they might base some statements on assumptions I do not fully agree with all the time, and before reading I was had not decided if I was strictly for or against open office plans, their conclusion is spot on: open plans do not foster collaboration or co…

I might add: I honestly do think we thinkers, developers, programmers, researchers, etc. do not talk enough and communication and exchange is important.

That being said, the open office plan is not the solution to that, it will kill every possibility of focus, and make the lives of people seeking it miserable - because there needs to be communication, but it should not interrupt everyone especially if not actively participating.

Post reply on HN