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Why some of the best developers keep quitting

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Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#121

Post by shandor »

nilkn wrote: post #100

A few other reasons (all that I've seen in some form in the real world): * Insufficient raises. This is by far the most common reason, but it's been discussed in this thread well already so there's no need for me to dive into details here. * Over-rewarding of managers and under-rewarding of developers. Very rarely are the management tracks and technical tracks actually equivalent. For instance, managers are granted e…

> Almost nobody wants to work on the exact same thing for more than a few years unless it's genuinely super interesting

That's a really, really tough problem actually. Businesses naturally want people to work on things that they are already very good at, to keep productivity high.

This is especially important in software consulting houses that churn out apps and whatnot without their own products, because their whole business scales only by the factor between the hourly price customers will pay for their work and the salary the developers are getting for that said work.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't agree with your point. It's just that I can also see how painfully expensive not going that route could (i.e. shoehorning) become for such a company, so I'm kind of sympathetic to their apparent reasoning behind it.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#122

Post by limelight »

BurningFrog wrote: post #25
malux85 wrote: post #4

Also - let the developers choose the work. We have a big todo list on the wall, and when a developer needs work, they can choose from the list. If a developer comes to me with a new idea, and it sounds viable, then I give them a bonus based on how well it executes. Everyone is incentivised and motivated to come up with new exciting projects. Smart developers want to create, so set them free! Autonomy, mastery, purpos…

How do you handle boring unglamorous but important tasks?

If a project is "important" then it should have business value.

For some developers (including me), working on projects with significant business value is the definition of glamorous. Since there's significant business value, then you should be rewarding people for delivering that value (with bonuses and raises).

If the task does not have significant business value, it's probably not actually important. A lot of maintenance tasks actually fall in this bucket.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#123

Post by morgante »

fweespeech wrote: post #6
rarec wrote: post #3

It's rare to also see these articles point out the immense pay discrepancy that can occur. Companies seem to want loyalty but they don't want to give it. This leads to the merc approach of just selling to the highest bidder.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

Some companies have a hard limit on developer salaries. Many will never pay a developer over $200k, even if the developer is that good.

This can come from two reasons:

1. The company doesn't have sufficiently valuable projects to capture the developer's potential. There are a lot of companies which simply don't need very senior developers and hence cannot match the price for a senior developer on the open market.

2. The company perceives developers as second-class relative to management or their core business leaders. Thus, they can never have developers paid more than those core people.

These companies see a very consistent talent pool of mediocre developers (who have been mediocre for a long time) and junior developers who come in and leave after 1-2 years once they realize they can get more elsewhere.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#124

Post by morgante »

mgkimsal wrote: post #33
spraak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

If you are actually in the UK, you have some amazing benefits that US-based folks don't get in the form of healthcare. I know, yes, technically, you're paying for it in taxes, but it's there for you all the time, regardless of your employment status or ability to pay for an insurance policy.

> If you are actually in the UK, you have some amazing benefits that US-based folks don't get in the form of healthcare.

So? That's pretty irrelevant since any good developer job in the US comes with excellent health coverage.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#125

Post by bjornsteffanson »

ghthor wrote: post #50

I quit when I get sick of what ever hierarchy I've been implanted in refuses to flatten after consistent attempts (overt or subvert) by myself to instigate positive change. My life is governed by a set of rules inspired from daoism and taijiquan. First and foremost is "Make good change"(The secret trick is to smile, from you heart). If the authoritarianism is standing in the way of this, it's time to move on.

> My life is governed by a set of rules inspired from daoism and taijiquan. First and foremost is "Make good change"(The secret trick is to smile, from you heart)

Can you elaborate?

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#126

Post by strictnein »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #53
mcguire wrote: post #49

" Jason Cole: “If you have someone saying, ‘I’m bored’ and you don’t do something about it, expect them to leave for a place where they won’t be bored.” " Ah, if it were only that easy. You fight your way through a half-dozen interviews, get an offer, negotiate until you just want to lay down and die, make it through the six-month ramp-up for the new environment, and then you're bored again. Lather, rinse, repeat, un…

I left my last job because I was bored. All I really want is a challenge to tackle and the flexibly/trust that I will tackle it in my own way.

Exact position I'm in right now. I've conveyed this to my boss, starting a year ago, but I think he realized that we just don't have anything challenging to work on.

I'm interviewing for two jobs now.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#127

Post by wesleyjconnor »

bberrry wrote: post #2

I definitely try to take the mantra "never be the smartest person in the room" to heart. It has been a fairly decent indicator of how enjoyable I've found working those particular roles.

This is the reason im in the process of leaving my current job, after 3 years here I find im one of the most experienced in the company with no one to turn to when bad things happen. If I want to learn and grow as a developer I dont want to be the most experienced person in the room

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#128

Post by mk89 »

My opinion after years of work is quite simple. I am disappointed by the way software is developed and by the people who contribute to it (leaders managers and anyone involved). When I was a teenager and I was eager to learn computer science and one day to work for a "cool" company doing good stuff I didn't focus on the "human" side of it. Big mistake. I should have already known that working with computers doesn't actually mean working with computers only. It involves 70% of human interactions and somewhat 30% of development. Which would be fine, if teams were always on the same wave. However group dynamics play an essential role here. Then there is the thing about the company's structure. Some are more or less hierarchical. However not everyone allows you to implement some ideas, as they don't fit the business. Then there are people who are simply not capable of managing, and I have to say that a lot boils down to this, not because it's easy to blame the management when you are at a bottom layer, but because it's difficult to be a good one - a manager.

Lying, witholding information, lack of communication, faking the cool manager just to show the atmosphere is open etc., how many should I still count?

So, the role of sw dev has to deal not only with the fact that it's not anymore about writing algorithms/data structure/rewriting the OS from scratch (which are super cool things to do), but ... also to deal with some incompetent people who under normal circumstances would not do certain things, but in the real world they are pushed from all sides and therefore behave quite bad. This is the reality I have seen so far, just because people don't take their own role seriously, tend to delegate as much as they can, etc. A lot like politics where nobody is really to blame, which creates a lot of frustration and people change "flags" quickly.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#130

Post by mnm1 »

Also: not getting timely raises. Sometimes even after asking. I mean seriously, why wouldn't they quit? And rightfully so. If an employer can't be bothered to keep up with compensation for a few years, the developer is actually now making significantly less than in their first year while undoubtedly having much more responsibility. That's essentially a pay cut. So yeah, if you're an employer out there and you think no raise or a 1-2% raise a year will cut it, you deserve to lose your best developers.
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