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The Kolmogorov option

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Re: The Kolmogorov option

#31

Post by mseebach »

I don't know anything about Kolmogorov, so I can't evaluate the assumption that he obviously saw through the lies and was horrified by the brutality - but I will note that a great number of prominent intellectuals, who were in absolutely no private danger from the soviet regime whatever they'd believe and say, and who definitely had access to information about the brutality, who still chose to support and defend the regime.

Without evidence to the contrary, it's plausible that Kolmogorov simply supported his government and found the brutality to be acceptable collateral damage.

If we've learned anything from the 20th century, one thing should be the lesson that even very smart people can be found supporting extreme brutality in support of an ideology.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#32

Post by softbuilder »

What I find myself wanting to fight is not the prevailing views on a topic, it's the willingness to lie and mislead to promote those views. I saw that this past week with the Google memo situation. I also saw a shocking amount of it last year with the US election. Sloppy journalism feeds the people who seem to want to believe the worst in everything, who in turn feed entire social networks. Eventually sufficient people have heard a thing that the network as a whole believes it. Individuals have little influence. I suppose public consciousness (and social media in particular) could be thought of as a big NN.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#33

Post by habitue »

Let's say this is about the Google memo. And let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a person who thinks Damore had some good points and some bad points but you think the hysterically censorious response to him was way over the line. But you don't want to become a pariah yourself, so you stay quiet about it. The argument Damore was making was fiddly, kind of subtle and takes a long time to explain, it's not worth the trouble you're going to get into. You take the Kolmogorov option and decide to wait out this insane time period.

Only it turns out, when you don't decide to argue for that subtle and qualified defense of Damore, a bunch of alt-right internet trolls make some terrible fallacious defenses of things he didn't say. Suddenly, the original censorious instincts seem much more righteous and justified. After all, "Now there are only full-throated red-pillers arguing in Damore's defense! We were right all along!"

Now there are two sides to this issue, and they're both identity politics and brain-dead shouting. Because no one stopped and offered a third option: actually discussing his argument, acknowledging where he was right, and discussing what he got wrong.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#34

Post by macrael »

Tell me, truly, is this a view held by many here? That, as the church denounced Galileo's observation that we turn around the sun as heretical, so too our modern PC culture suppresses legitimate inquiry into wether gender is a determinant of programming aptitude? This is a comparison worth drawing?

Galileo was a scientist. He published papers, books, treatises. He devoted his life to the pursuit of the truth, found a big piece of it, and was punished by society for it. He is one of the giants whose shoulders we stand on.

Kolmogorov sounds cut of the same cloth. He built a research center, helped other scientists on the way up, and left a legacy.

James Damore is a junior programmer who wrote a 10 page 'manifesto' accusing his colleagues of having inferior genes. This created a textbook hostile work environment,[1] leading to his firing.

The amount of sympathy I've seen here is dismaying. It is illustrating just how far we have to go until equality is the rule of the day. Please, before you throw in your lot with him, consider how ridiculous the analogy OP made here is. The Google Manifesto is manifestly not A Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.

I will say, some of the heavyweight commenters here do give me hope. tptacek linked this graph[2] on one of the early threads on this. It's a pretty solid rebuttal to any and all concerns that women are innately unsuited to computers rather than that our computer culture has driven them away.

[1]: https://medium.com/@scurphey/googles-response-to-employee-s-...

[2]: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#35

Post by [deleted] »

rodgerd wrote: post #10
idlewords wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas.

Huh. I must have missed the bit where there were secret police rounding up dissedents and sticking them in camps where they were worked to death in Texas. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it.

[deleted]

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#36

Post by pron »

kenbaylor wrote: post #6
hyperpallium wrote: post #4

What's the hinted present-day ideology he dare not challenge?

A veiled James Damore ('Google Manifesto') analogy perhaps?

Damore is no Galileo. He wrote about a subject he knows little about, didn't seriously research, and one that he actually doesn't seem too interested in studying at all. He wanted to enjoy the appearance of a "forbidden truth" while not caring to put in the effort of actually acquiring it. Aside from the fact that his opinion isn't popular in his immediate circle (yet far from revolutionary, and indeed very common among the ruling party in his country), he is a far cry from the iconoclast scientists who care deeply about a subject, devote their lives to studying it, know its ins and outs, and research it with fiery intensity.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#37

Post by wisty »

idlewords wrote: post #22
wisty wrote: post #17

A bit of game theory might be useful - https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/c... Riots and revolutions are difficult to start because of a number of obstacles: * It is not clear how many sympathizers you have. * Even if you believe you have the numbers, being the first to act may result in you being made an example of by the authorities. It's smarter then to rely on more ambiguous signals. Playi…

Since I presume you're a techie, it's funny that you overlook the main reason for Luther's success, which was technological—the invention of the mass-printed pamphlet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_during_the_Reformat... I would also urge you to resist the lure of game theory in analyzing human behavior. It's a toy model that gives toy insights.

Mass communication was also a factor, but probably not one that Luther would have grasped until he was already committed. And he wouldn't have printed any pamphlets if the local authorities executed him immediately.

As for game theory being a toy model, every model of human behaviour is a toy model. I'm not sure if game theory is a particularly bad one.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#38

Post by apsec112 »

macrael wrote: post #34

Tell me, truly, is this a view held by many here? That, as the church denounced Galileo's observation that we turn around the sun as heretical, so too our modern PC culture suppresses legitimate inquiry into wether gender is a determinant of programming aptitude? This is a comparison worth drawing? Galileo was a scientist. He published papers, books, treatises. He devoted his life to the pursuit of the truth, found a…

"Please, before you throw in your lot with him, consider how ridiculous the analogy OP made here is. The Google Manifesto is manifestly not A Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems."

Aaronson doesn't mention Google or Damore.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#39

Post by rodgerd »

He may be a wonderful person, but if he genuinely thinks being a straight white guy in the US is harder than being gay, he's not as clever as he thinks he is.

Re: The Kolmogorov option

#40

Post by johanvts »

mseebach wrote: post #31

I don't know anything about Kolmogorov, so I can't evaluate the assumption that he obviously saw through the lies and was horrified by the brutality - but I will note that a great number of prominent intellectuals, who were in absolutely no private danger from the soviet regime whatever they'd believe and say, and who definitely had access to information about the brutality, who still chose to support and defend the…

I wondered the same thing, there is an excellent book on this topic called "The reckless mind" that might interest you if you didn't already read it. I portrays great thinkers who got swayed by totalitarian systems and asks why.
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