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Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

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Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#31

For the life of me I still can't figure out what he wrote that was so offensive. I see people attacking him in general terms, calling him a bigot/sexist/etc, but they never mention anything specific he wrote. Can anyone point to anything specific that is upsetting so many people?

The document is the definition of sexism and a perfect example of why we still need diversity laws and programs.

Despite the attempts to provide disclaimers, many of the comments he wrote were explicitly sexist. For example the sections "Personality differences" and "Men's higher drive for status".

Sexism means prejudice related to gender. Prejudice means pre-judging a group. For example the belief that women do not have as high as drive for status can (and previously has been) used as an excuse for promoting men instead of women or a particular man instead of a particular woman.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

And other comments. In the context of discussion of things like hiring, promotion and pay, acting on the beliefs he stated has been outlawed (even though unfortunately these biases are still very prevalent). If they do not fire him, the document will be used as evidence in discriminatory lawsuits.

These sexist beliefs are still just as popular as ageist and racist beliefs. Many may be able to find scientific studies that back up their prejudice. There are usually studies backing up just about any view, just due to the nature of science. Regardless of how well accepted or not these studies are, the laws have already been made years before. So if you want these types of prejudicial beliefs to be openly consulted in hiring, promotion, etc. decisions in companies, those laws will need to be changed.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#32

Liberals / progressives keep missing the point - silencing your opposition and calling them names only shows how weak your side of the argument is. That's how you get 4 more years of Trump. Fight bad ideas with better ideas, better arguments.

Yes, excellent point. I watched Dunkirk last week and was struck by the difference between the brave young men then and our cucked generation today. The British soldiers knew that they wouldn't defeat the Germans by trying to silence them: they stood there with their weapons unloaded and debated the German soldiers point-by-point about why the Nazi political program was misguided for Germany, until finally the Germans changed their mind and accepted Churchill's better ideas. Truly a moving movie, and highly recommended.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#33
post #28

For those who discuss this as "being fired for wrongthink": Companies fire people for lack of cultural fit. How is this any different?

It may not be any different. In any case, and irrespective of this specific case or how anyone might feel about it, I think it's probably a good idea to be critical of claims like bad cultural fit when coming from corporate execs. Yes, there are some people who are unable to act in a way that most would agree is a professional manner, and indeed these people are toxic and pretty much impossible to work with, however, I have a strong suspicion that bad "cultural fit" in many cases is probably just an instance of bias and essentially a weasel term to make it acceptable to only want to hire people of specific demographics.

At this point I really wish tech would just abandon this whole "culture" thing were the company hopes to be a center of social activity and just go back to being a place people work and get a paycheck in return.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#34
Because evolutionary biology is fundamentally at odds with the core tenets of Feminism.

Feminism is founded on the idea that males and females are equal. Biological research over the past 30 years; specifically from the fields of genetics, behavioral ecology, and evolutionary biology; directly contradicts this premise. Evolutionary biology research tells us there are sex differences in human males and females during all phases of the human lifecycle, including prenatal, childhood, adolescence, mating, parenting, grandparenting, and death. Behavioral ecology tells us we see these same effects in non-human species too. Genetics tells us these traits are heritable and not socially constructed (for example, the correlation between a parent's IQ and their child is around .80, even accounting for adoption).

How does one reconcile evidence from a field of science, that directly contradicts one's own beliefs? To protect one's identity, to avoid the cognitive dissonance, the obvious answer is to discredit the field, discredit the arguments, and discredit the person citing it.

That is why there is a concerted effort by Feminists, and supporters of feminism in the media to squash statistical evidence that goes against their ideology.

It is akin to telling a Christian that God is not real. You will receive a similar response. Heretics must be punished.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#35
post #28

For those who discuss this as "being fired for wrongthink": Companies fire people for lack of cultural fit. How is this any different?

Yea but Google isn't firing him for "lack of cultural fit." They're firing him because they don't like it. Big difference.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#36
post #2

Getting flagged in 5, 4, ...

.. 3, 2, 1 ... Lets see what he wrote that was so offensive, remembering that it was to a private list and only posted to the wider Internet by Googles 'diversity' chief Danielle Brown. "Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber" https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

Let this incident fully dislodge any tendency to cling to the belief that people in positions of authority wear their hearts on their sleeves, or that their statements can be taken at face value.

It doesn't make sense from the naive perspective because people are manipulating the narrative. If Trump's election doesn't make that painfully obvious, I don't know what will.

Imagine you are reading some code written by a colleague and comparing it against some output. After reviewing the code 3-4 times, you cannot figure out where a certain strange token, unlike the others, is coming from. Do we continue to stare at the same chunk of code, or do we look for other points in the pipeline where the file may be touched by an external process?

Companies that fail to maintain a specific type of brand persona open themselves to extremely costly lawsuits. Corporate management exists to say what needs to be said to get employees to cooperate and to keep the company from falling into legal or financial peril.

You can't take things at face value. This article indicates that Damore is 28 years old. A lot of us have to learn this lesson after a few years in the workforce, often in bitter, unpleasant ways (generally proportional to the amount of hope/optimism we have that things aren't really that way). Let's learn from Damore's experience, where his well-meaning attempt to discuss and explain the issue at hand got him terminated.

"Kumbaya" is a myth. Humans are tribal and driven by biological impulses to hoard both materials and personal control for good survival-centric reasons. There is no reason, other than naive optimism, to assume there are some fields where these instincts do not apply.

We should think about how we can change our processes to keep undeserving persons from scheming their way into positions of power, and revising a legal structure that forces everyone to act like a scared mouse around anything slightly controversial is probably a good place to start.

I hope that Damore revises his essay in 1 year's time from his now-forcefully-refined worldview.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're conflating a political movement with a company doing PR damage control. Google management didn't "call him names". Google is heavily invested in the political movement. Lets not pretend google is an objective observer in this. > They are actively trying to hire the best engineers in the world and this memo just put a dent in their hiring process for 50% of their potential hiring candidates. Can you point to…

>Google is heavily invested in the political movement. What "political movement" did the guy they fired represent? "All men are created equal" is a political statement, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is a political statement, "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender" is bigoted nonsense. That he tried to use discredited pseudo-science to back up his statement doesn't make…

>Bottom line: the core thesis of the "manifesto" was on par with eugenics, anti-vaxxer propaganda, or anti-climate FUD.

Awesome strawman!

Don't agree with someone? Equate their argument with something significantly worse..

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#38

Because evolutionary biology is fundamentally at odds with the core tenets of Feminism. Feminism is founded on the idea that males and females are equal. Biological research over the past 30 years; specifically from the fields of genetics, behavioral ecology, and evolutionary biology; directly contradicts this premise. Evolutionary biology research tells us there are sex differences in human males and females during…

So, you're telling me there is a feminist conspiracy against science?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#39

Because evolutionary biology is fundamentally at odds with the core tenets of Feminism. Feminism is founded on the idea that males and females are equal. Biological research over the past 30 years; specifically from the fields of genetics, behavioral ecology, and evolutionary biology; directly contradicts this premise. Evolutionary biology research tells us there are sex differences in human males and females during…

Men and woman ARE equal. What they are NOT is identical.

Many feminists rightly argue for the first. The second is obviously postmodernist twaddle.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#40
post #28

For those who discuss this as "being fired for wrongthink": Companies fire people for lack of cultural fit. How is this any different?

Yea but Google isn't firing him for "lack of cultural fit." They're firing him because they don't like it. Big difference.

Please extrapolate what is the differerence. I dont see it
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