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Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#51

Post by jacquesm »

venning wrote: post #37
as1mov wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the recently flagged submissions were related to the diversity memo. I don't mind if fluff articles from dailydot are removed. But then when a verbatim copy of the memo was posted, and even that was flagged. I highly doubt that was flagged because it would have low quality discussions. People just abuse the flagging system to hide content that they don't agree with.

I also doubt that it was flagged because it would generate low-quality discussion. But I do not doubt that low-quality discussion would have followed had it not been flagged off the front page. I see flags, especially when they are abused, as indicators that having a high-quality discussion is going to be next to impossible. If people are going to use one tool (flags) poorly, it's likely they will use a more powerful…

> I see flags, especially when they are abused, as indicators that having a high-quality discussion is going to be next to impossible. If people are going to use one tool (flags) poorly, it's likely they will use a more powerful tool (comments) poorly.

Flags are the more powerful tool. A single flag is the equivalent of many upvotes and annihilates the whole discussion. That's a lot more power than a comment, which can be dealt with on an individual basis.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#52

Post by DanielBMarkham »

jacquesm wrote: post #50
dismantlethesun wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are places for cutting the crap, and taking a stand... that doesn't necessarily have to be here. To call upon the topic of "safe spaces", I think HN ought to be a safe space for people involved in technology to simply... be... without having to constantly add disclaimers to their comments referencing their employer, or watching out for attacks due to their involvement in something that's suddenly politically vo…

> Adding other rooms isn't something I'd like to consider, whilst the existence of other multi-room sites exist with the same population. That doesn't parse, but even if it did I disagree with it, i don't think that those other sites exist with the same population.

And the thing is, by being a startup board, we support exactly the kind of actions, movements, and organizations that have greatest new impact on fellow humans

It might be okay to turn away if that "new impact" is something like faster pizza delivery. It's another thing entirely when we're instrumenting every action that every cell phone user does and then selling the data off to the highest bidder.

There might be plenty of other places for this discussion. There are no other places with these people who are responsible for doing these things.

And this is exactly what the social media companies want: everybody to find some other place besides their forum to talk about difficult things, because difficult conversations turn away eyeballs.

It's us. The founders, inventors, and senior executives and engineers at these companies that are most in need of these discussions. And we not only have created a world where these things don't happen, we revel in the fact that we've separated all these concerns into different compartments

It is a vile and corrupt system. I refuse to believe that people who give some time to think about it would continue supporting it the way it is.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#53

Post by venning »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
venning wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also doubt that it was flagged because it would generate low-quality discussion. But I do not doubt that low-quality discussion would have followed had it not been flagged off the front page. I see flags, especially when they are abused, as indicators that having a high-quality discussion is going to be next to impossible. If people are going to use one tool (flags) poorly, it's likely they will use a more powerful…

> I see flags, especially when they are abused, as indicators that having a high-quality discussion is going to be next to impossible. If people are going to use one tool (flags) poorly, it's likely they will use a more powerful tool (comments) poorly. Flags are the more powerful tool. A single flag is the equivalent of many upvotes and annihilates the whole discussion. That's a lot more power than a comment, which c…

That's a fair point.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#54

Post by jacquesm »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #52
jacquesm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding other rooms isn't something I'd like to consider, whilst the existence of other multi-room sites exist with the same population. That doesn't parse, but even if it did I disagree with it, i don't think that those other sites exist with the same population.

And the thing is, by being a startup board, we support exactly the kind of actions, movements, and organizations that have greatest new impact on fellow humans It might be okay to turn away if that "new impact" is something like faster pizza delivery. It's another thing entirely when we're instrumenting every action that every cell phone user does and then selling the data off to the highest bidder. There might be pl…

Spot on. Thanks for these comments and this discussion.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#55

Post by dismantlethesun »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #52
jacquesm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding other rooms isn't something I'd like to consider, whilst the existence of other multi-room sites exist with the same population. That doesn't parse, but even if it did I disagree with it, i don't think that those other sites exist with the same population.

And the thing is, by being a startup board, we support exactly the kind of actions, movements, and organizations that have greatest new impact on fellow humans It might be okay to turn away if that "new impact" is something like faster pizza delivery. It's another thing entirely when we're instrumenting every action that every cell phone user does and then selling the data off to the highest bidder. There might be pl…

That's a nice notion, but being called out as "vile and corrupt" is exactly what my fear is. I would want a teensy bit more nuance before we decide to stake people out as corrupt.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#56

Post by greenyoda »

as1mov wrote: post #5

FYI you can view dead/flagged submissions by going to your profile and enabling showdead. I don't know if this is the correct place to criticize HN's moderation policies, it's kinda disheartening to see the list of submissions that were removed. News articles regarding the diversity memo were allowed but submissions linking to the actual memo were removed for some reason. If the actual memo is sexist/bigoted, then pe…

"News articles regarding the diversity memo were allowed but submissions linking to the actual memo were removed for some reason."

No, this article, the first one to publish the full text of the memo, got 353 points and received 616 comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14937895

Several subsequent submissions of the same content were flagged as duplicates.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#57

Post by [deleted] »

as1mov wrote: post #5

FYI you can view dead/flagged submissions by going to your profile and enabling showdead. I don't know if this is the correct place to criticize HN's moderation policies, it's kinda disheartening to see the list of submissions that were removed. News articles regarding the diversity memo were allowed but submissions linking to the actual memo were removed for some reason. If the actual memo is sexist/bigoted, then pe…

[deleted]

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#59

Post by as1mov »

greenyoda wrote: post #56
as1mov wrote: post #5

FYI you can view dead/flagged submissions by going to your profile and enabling showdead. I don't know if this is the correct place to criticize HN's moderation policies, it's kinda disheartening to see the list of submissions that were removed. News articles regarding the diversity memo were allowed but submissions linking to the actual memo were removed for some reason. If the actual memo is sexist/bigoted, then pe…

"News articles regarding the diversity memo were allowed but submissions linking to the actual memo were removed for some reason." No, this article, the first one to publish the full text of the memo, got 353 points and received 616 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14937895 Several subsequent submissions of the same content were flagged as duplicates.

The Gizmodo article omits several of the links to various studies that the actual memo makes. Even though the article actually mentions this, I doubt many people will actually will make the effort to know what those references were. And to be honest I don't think many people read beyond the articles summary, as evident by the discussion of the post.

Re: Hcrknews.com (Flagged / Censored content can be seen)

#60

Post by DanielBMarkham »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #55
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the thing is, by being a startup board, we support exactly the kind of actions, movements, and organizations that have greatest new impact on fellow humans It might be okay to turn away if that "new impact" is something like faster pizza delivery. It's another thing entirely when we're instrumenting every action that every cell phone user does and then selling the data off to the highest bidder. There might be pl…

That's a nice notion, but being called out as "vile and corrupt" is exactly what my fear is. I would want a teensy bit more nuance before we decide to stake people out as corrupt.

There are some challenges, especially in written communication, and especially when it involves large audiences. Many times there's no comprehension, yet communication happens anyway. That's when we say people are "talking past one another"

For instance, you said "I would want a teensy bit more nuance before we decide to stake people out as corrupt."

But I never said that. I said it was a vile and corrupt system. I also explicitly said that I had faith in people. I believe if they consider these systems (that I believe they created in good faith) they would realize that they are hurting mankind, not helping it.

I also believe there is a difference between "wanting to be right" and "wanting to have a difficult conversation" I have no desire to be right. Like everybody else, I believe I am in the right. But one person or group of people wanting to be proven right is not what this is about.

Jacques and I probably disagree on this particular Google issue. I don't know. I am a right-leaning libertarian and, I think, Jacques leans left. But I'm okay no matter how this shakes out. The reason I'm speaking out is that there is a innate conflict between efficiency, usefulness, and attractiveness of the public square and tolerance of dissent.

Mankind solved this problem and it gave us all of the technological miracles we see today. But now the concept of "public square" is primarily being owned by multinational corporations or governments with no knowledge or desire to hear or apply those lessons from our past. They just want a more attractive and useful public square, not one that encourages and tolerates difficult conversations.

The irony here is that this one conflict is driving what many perceive to be the greatest technological danger to the species.

The system we have created in response to this conflict made sense at the time. But it was short-sighted. By trying to compartmentalize troublesome people and conversations, oddly enough, it is contributing to a vicious cycle where the net swings wildly one way or the other. It is a vile and corrupt system. I continue to believe the people who created it are not.

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