Why some of the best developers keep quitting • Hacker News Board

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#81

Post by brooksbp » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:16 AM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #7

None of these 4 reasons (TD;LR: you waited until the exit interview, you assume mentors want to manage, you assume the natural ascension of developers is management and not higher-level IC roles, you aren't supporting them and their career) are why they quit. People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mast…

  People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mastery, purpose); they don't want to pay for retention and therefore don't provide perks for retention.

The culture around ROI is a massive factor. Too short? Too long? It has to be balanced.

Another belief I hold: most people want to be told what to do.. to a certain degree. That's the trick.

The political way of phrasing this is that leadership also has to be balanced. Too much results in predictability and people getting bored. Too little results in people feeling lost.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#82

Post by bassman9000 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:18 AM UTC

s73ver wrote: post #45

BurningFrog wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you handle boring unglamorous but important tasks?

You assign it. Everyone knows that there's going to be some of that; that's why it's called "work". But you have to make sure to spread it around as best you can, so that one person isn't constantly being bombarded with the crappy tasks. Maybe after they're done, give them first choice of other tasks.

Indeed. There someone that is perceived worse than being assigned menial/boring work: when your manager doesn't even want to assign it, fearing losing "cool points".

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#83

Post by bassman9000 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:21 AM UTC

loco5niner wrote: post #24

...you moved to an open office plan...

underrated.

But seriously, open office is the devil incarnate. I don't see how it can foster communication, unless you think communication is to distract some people, so some other people can look like they're doing something.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#84

Post by john_moscow » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:25 AM UTC

tropshop wrote: post #17

What do hyper-productive teams look like these days? I've always been part of small teams, with only a few true workhorses, joined by other filler bodies. Productivity was mostly a mystery to management. I do not understand team sizes of 50+ for some web app product. The formula only requires a few (3) workhorses that make up a collaboration of skills in product design and engineering, and finding ways to keep them c…

For an average investor a "1000-employee company" sounds much more impressive than "10-employee company", even if the revenue is the same and the rest 990 folks are browsing catgifs most of the time. Kinda like hiring film extras.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#85

Post by Terr_ » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:36 AM UTC

dlwdlw wrote: post #63

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

I have a theory that most people in the US are overpaid. However the overpayment is a strategy by management so that they themselves can be even more overpaid. This can be afforded because the overpaid people are locked into middle class life scripts driving up cost of living (houses) so that they are still reliant on the jobs. It's potential "fuck u" money but isn't because of the attractive force of a domain and re…

If most people are "overpaid", why have wages dropped relative to productivity for decades?

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#86

Post by a3n » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:37 AM UTC

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

> Most companies don't want to pay for retention.

But many companies, the companies with that 20% greener grass, are willing to give a complete stranger a 20% raise.

"The irony ... the irony ..."

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#87

Post by gdulli » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:37 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #25

malux85 wrote: post #4

Also - let the developers choose the work. We have a big todo list on the wall, and when a developer needs work, they can choose from the list. If a developer comes to me with a new idea, and it sounds viable, then I give them a bonus based on how well it executes. Everyone is incentivised and motivated to come up with new exciting projects. Smart developers want to create, so set them free! Autonomy, mastery, purpos…

How do you handle boring unglamorous but important tasks?

People all have different values. There's work others don't find interesting that I can be happy doing. What I need is freedom, not just for technical choices but also for process.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#88

Post by a3n » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:38 AM UTC

dlwdlw wrote: post #63

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

I have a theory that most people in the US are overpaid. However the overpayment is a strategy by management so that they themselves can be even more overpaid. This can be afforded because the overpaid people are locked into middle class life scripts driving up cost of living (houses) so that they are still reliant on the jobs. It's potential "fuck u" money but isn't because of the attractive force of a domain and re…

I have a theory that most people in the US do not work in SV-like jobs.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#89

Post by throwaway5752 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:52 AM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #79

throwaway5752 wrote: post #41

Two really obvious reason that never seem to get discussed in articles like this: 1. Usually if you've demonstrated success for two years, you can move upwards more rapidly switching companies (up to a point). 2. You've gotten past your vesting cliff, and - particularly with early stage companies - you want to diversify your ISO holdings in the hope of getting a 100xer.

1. Less than a year if you are at the beginning of your career in one of the tech hub.

I'd consider a string of < 1 year positions a red flag when hiring. I think there's an element of courtesy and maturity in staying 2 years unless there are reasonable circumstances why it's not possible. As a hiring manager I want to make sure that my time and effort recruiting are not wasted. Same for training and development of subject matter expertise. Obviously I need to reciprocate in compensation/learning opportunities.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#90

Post by manyxcxi » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

a3n wrote: post #86

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

> Most companies don't want to pay for retention. But many companies, the companies with that 20% greener grass, are willing to give a complete stranger a 20% raise. "The irony ... the irony ..."

Most decent companies have two pools of money. One for raises, and one for retention. The key here is, the manager has to really fight for it. If they believe enough in the employee to battle for the retention dollars, I've typically seen it go well.

Here's the key, a lot of managers are too afraid, confrontation averse, or short sighted to make a fight for their employee.