Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#61

Post by gjulianm » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

tracker1 wrote: post #20

gobugat wrote: post #7

> "Companies don’t have viewpoints." They do. Not reacting would have been an endorsement. Many would want to think that these issues are apolitical, or scientific, or anything "neutral". They are not. Make no mistake. This is a fight. A struggle between two visions of the world, maybe more. Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google execut…

Yeah... nothing to debate, no points of contention, nothing to see here... it's how I see it, and if you don't agree, I'll shut you down. Sounds open to new ideas and diverse opinions to me.

I wonder if there would be the same controversy if the memo had gone viral but being about any other issue, say, about what the guy thinks Google is doing wrong with Google+. I assume that the guy would be fired also, but I'm not sure.

In other words, I'm not sure whether the firing is to supress opinions or to punish putting the company in a bad spot.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#62

Post by naturalgradient » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

kajecounterhack wrote: post #44

naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

No, what the whole episode really seems to show is how prejudice that hurts people is viewed as "just words" rather than a tangible / real hurtful thing. You can't curse off your boss. You can't demean people of other genders and races at work. You can't create a hostile workplace environment and expect nothing to happen to you. You can try to cloak it in a longform "civil" or "facts-based" document but ultimately wh…

This is authoritarian logic.

A threat is never just an opinion in authoritarian thinking. It's outside of what constitutes an opinion, it's outside the system.

Hence, for the greater good, it must be not just be rejected, it must be destroyed as a moral necessity.

If you go down this road, there is only one destination.

I can sympathise with your view point. Of course I can. That is my whole point. It takes incredibly mental expenditure to not follow that style of thinking.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#63

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

[deleted]

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#64

Post by gobugat » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

> "for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast"

Lol. He is fine. He got fired from one job, will find another one. What you describe however does sound like the price people usually pay for not being white males. So common we don't even think about it any more.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#65

Post by macspoofing » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #17

macspoofing wrote: post #6

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemnation from "Head of Diversity" and the CEO - who will now hold a town-hall to, I guess, denounce it even more? The entire thing seems like a big nothing-burger from every side.

> I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay. I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself. Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it. We all…

>I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay.

I don't work at Google, so I'm not.

The manifesto itself is controversial in that if you poll the plurality of the population or employees of Google on whether they agree with some or all of it, you won't have consensus, I'm sure of it.

>I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself.

Yeah, thanks for the condescension - just because I haven't reached the same conclusion must mean I haven't taken "time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself".

>Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it.

Uh huh.

>If I had a superpower, it would be making people see the world through other people's eyes.

Why don't you try making an effort sometime.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#66

Post by thrownndown » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

dangerlibrary wrote: post #2

Is any organization of meaningful size (# of employees, revenue, market cap - pick your metric) handling diversity issues in a way that completely satisfies the "proportional representation of the population" metric? Are there any success stories that one could use as case studies?

Look for organizations in the industries in the middle of this chart?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/06/chart-the-perce...

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#67

Post by influx » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

kevinburke wrote: post #59

naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you. I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" o…

Curious if you feel Colin Kaepernick should have been fired and blacklisted for supporting Black Lives Matter? After all, it was only a consequence of free speech from his employers.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#68

Post by kuschku » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

wfunction wrote: post #35

leereeves wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unsupported Did you only read the Gizmodo version that removed all the references? Here's a copy with the references: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

Whoever in Gizmodo redacted or allowed the reduction of the 25+ citations should be fired. That was such irresponsible journalism that it honestly looks actively malicious, and it wasn't matter what side you're on. You can't remove all the support someone provides for their position and hide it behind a short and vague disclaimer while presenting it as though it's materially equivalent to the original. If their evide…

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#69

Post by trequartista » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

Google is in a no-win situation here. Fire the guy - get these kind of reactions about not listening to opposing voices. Not fire the guy - incendiary reactions from the general public.

If Google had not fired the guy, a large majority of women (and men) in Google wouldn't want this guy (as brilliant as he may be) in their teams - that would create an unnecessarily hostile and uncomfortable workplace.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#70

Post by 19guid » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #9

Has he set Google up for this blowup or do Americans just usually have complaints to federal regulators written and ready to send? Before being fired, Mr. Damore said, he had submitted a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board claiming that Google’s upper management was “misrepresenting and shaming me in order to silence my complaints.” He added that it was “illegal to retaliate” against an N.L.R.B. charge. h…

I think it's more likely that there's a history here that we're not aware of. His complaint suggests he's been arguing with Google's management for some time, and that this memo was the last straw.