Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#21

Post by virgil_disgr4ce » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:21 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #6

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemnation from "Head of Diversity" and the CEO - who will now hold a town-hall to, I guess, denounce it even more? The entire thing seems like a big nothing-burger from every side.

Ask some women developers about their experiences (as many as possible). Even if this particular person/memo/fracas is overblown, it has obviously become an avatar for the issue at large: discrimination and sexism.

I've been seeing the stories from my software dev friends who happen to be women, and it's shocking that the same dumb shit is happening in 2017. "Wow, YOU'RE a developer?" "Hey, will she sit next to me?" etc etc etc etc.

So the memo strikes a nerve. That doesn't make it right or wrong, I'm not saying his being fired is this or that. What I'm saying is that it's not nothing: a lot of human beings who happen to be women and who happen to be software developers have been trying to fight these insane gender stereotypes that somehow are still being perpetuated.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#22

Post by dopamean » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #8

What's more likely: the author was fired for suggesting alternate methods of improving diversity at Google or the author was fired for repeating unsupported gender stereotypes, offering alternate methods that themselves played on gender stereotypes, and creating an environment in which he would not be able to effectively carry out his responsibilities as a result of promoting gender stereotypes?

There's another possibility. This guy could have been rather obnoxious about his views in the past and had been repeatedly warned. Then he wrote a memo that appeared to be professional but espoused the same views and was finally fired for it.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#23

Post by dangerlibrary » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #8

What's more likely: the author was fired for suggesting alternate methods of improving diversity at Google or the author was fired for repeating unsupported gender stereotypes, offering alternate methods that themselves played on gender stereotypes, and creating an environment in which he would not be able to effectively carry out his responsibilities as a result of promoting gender stereotypes?

A false dichotomy. A third: Google is currently in hot water with the Department of Labor for their extreme gender pay gap and wants a PR win.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#24

Post by skylark » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

I don't have strong feelings about the original memo, but the media coverage has been an absolute circus.

Google's hand was forced because of the negative PR storm that happened, not because it systematically suppresses the voices of its employees.

> This algorithm is tuned by an internal team of evaluators. If the company silences dissent within its own ranks, why should we trust it to manage our access to information?

I'm almost convinced that this is satire.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#25

Post by int_19h » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

> Not the Ex-Google guy with his medium rant about how people would punch him in the face and he would understand.

Could you give a link to that rant?

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#26

Post by azinman2 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

fwn wrote: post #12

gobugat wrote: post #7

> "Companies don’t have viewpoints." They do. Not reacting would have been an endorsement. Many would want to think that these issues are apolitical, or scientific, or anything "neutral". They are not. Make no mistake. This is a fight. A struggle between two visions of the world, maybe more. Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google execut…

> Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. They are. At least that's how civilised societies would handle it. It could be a textbook example of a decision a civil discourse could approach.

But it’s not civil when you suggest there’s inherently biological reasons for your coworkers to be inferior to you.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#27

Post by avaer » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #6

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemnation from "Head of Diversity" and the CEO - who will now hold a town-hall to, I guess, denounce it even more? The entire thing seems like a big nothing-burger from every side.

It gets the clicks, shares, and comments. The incentives are stacked for both the social and traditional media to ride the outrage straight to the bank.

And Google has no choice but to clean up the mess with the right signals.

I don't think concern over diversity or sexism (which deserves its own calm debate) is what's driving this "nothing burger" story.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#28

Post by nxsynonym » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:23 PM UTC

gobugat wrote: post #7

> "Companies don’t have viewpoints." They do. Not reacting would have been an endorsement. Many would want to think that these issues are apolitical, or scientific, or anything "neutral". They are not. Make no mistake. This is a fight. A struggle between two visions of the world, maybe more. Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google execut…

Companies can and should have view points. However, firing anyone who disagrees with those viewpoints is a knee-jerk reaction to avoid any negative press.

They could have reacted with a "Google does not support or endorse the views expressed", and let the rest happen naturally.

This is censorship. Yes, it's within a privately owned company, but it is very clearly a suppression of intellectual debate. Why not encourage this debate to happen?

This black-and-white, all-or-nothing trend in public speech in general is very concerning. Debate and discourse no longer exist, it's simply one side flaming the other.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#29

Post by whytaka » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:23 PM UTC

gobugat wrote: post #7

> "Companies don’t have viewpoints." They do. Not reacting would have been an endorsement. Many would want to think that these issues are apolitical, or scientific, or anything "neutral". They are not. Make no mistake. This is a fight. A struggle between two visions of the world, maybe more. Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google execut…

> Not reacting would have been an endorsement.

Some have said, "Reacting to it would dignify it". Is that an endorsement?

> They are not.

Are you saying we can't use science to determine whether differences between the sexes exist?

> Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

PS. Why is your username green?

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#30

Post by gbarc888 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:23 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #6

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemnation from "Head of Diversity" and the CEO - who will now hold a town-hall to, I guess, denounce it even more? The entire thing seems like a big nothing-burger from every side.

It went viral within google. I think it surfaced a lot of repressed things that people were thinking but afraid to say -- maybe some faction of googlers believed that there were silent sexists within the company, and this validated that belief. Maybe another faction of googlers believed that they were reverse-discriminated against, and this validated THEIR belief as well.

It is unfortunate that it took this memo to expose what a lot of people were previously afraid to say (from BOTH sides)