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American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

nytimes.com

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Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#81

Post by crux_ »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #80
crux_ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could trade an iPhone for a house, I would. You're blatantly misrepresenting the scale of these things in order to equate them.

iPhone: $200 + $70/mo + apps & accessories, call it roughly $1k/year internet/cable: $50-100/mo, call it roughly $1k/year too gaming: $250 xbox 360 or ps3 every 4ish years, plus maybe a $60 game every 3 months, call it $300/year entertainment: 10 DVDs a year at $15 each, a movie in the theater every month at $10 a pop, call it $300/year eating out: $20 including tax and tip every week, call it $1k/year car payment: a…

There's sort of two directions to respond in here. First, you're rather fudging the conclusion that cutting expenses to the bone has bought you a house -- better save for double the time or end up putting 10% or less down, which has been manifestly demonstrated in recent years to be a stupid idea.

More generally, this whole conversation has become one of minutia.

The fact is that moving ahead financially has become more difficult. Impossible, of course not -- but the sacrifice, shrewdness, and plain dumb luck required continue to grow.

You will have a hard time convincing me, or anyone else paying attention, that this trend is due to some sort of society-wide age-related motivational shortcoming, which seems to be your argument.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#82

Post by ac132 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #42

This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience. The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and d…

I agree, seriously, how many successful startups have we seen spring to life during this recession? The American Dream is still alive and well if you have the right skill set. And that's the way it's always been.

The true meaning of American Dream is that you're "free" to pursue your dreams without government interference. You could argue that in that sense the Dream has diminished, but this author is way off the mark.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#83

Post by ac132 »

I think this kid's problem ultimately boils down to one statement: "He majored in political science and minored in history."

And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#84

Post by gaius »

mattm wrote: post #64
robryan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.

I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees. I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof…

There is a mantra that I don't know where exactly came from, but my teachers in the 6th form (High School) all repeated it: it doesn't matter what you study as at university you are really learning how to learn.

We need to knock that on the head before we make any progress,

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#85

Post by robryan »

gaius wrote: post #84
mattm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees. I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof…

There is a mantra that I don't know where exactly came from, but my teachers in the 6th form (High School) all repeated it: it doesn't matter what you study as at university you are really learning how to learn. We need to knock that on the head before we make any progress,

Agreed, this thought has some value but people need to realise that it doesn't mean that studying something then applying for another field puts them on an equal standing to those who studied in that specific field.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#86

Post by dgreensp »

“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said.

This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#87

Post by nick-dap »

aliston wrote: post #68
nick-dap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. If the NY Times want to write a story about an elusive American Dream they should write about us, the Dream Act students, who've been stuck in limbo with no job and no rights in sight because of our broken immigration system. It feels absolutely devastating to graduate from college, hang that degree on the wall, and realize that you can't even open a bank account.

Plenty of illegal immigrants have bank accounts. At least around here (Bay Area) it's kind of a joke -- there's literally a separate line for illegal immigrants to do all-cash transactions. Presumably they use a fake SSN to open the account. Also, there is nothing preventing illegal immigrants from going to college. It's unfair, however, for tax payers to subsidize their education even further when an American citize…

You are either misinformed or are purposely changing the facts.

The immigrants who open bank accounts open them using ITIN. Others, can't open a bank account because we lack _any_ documentation that is not expired. Our consulates are refusing to renew anything. Others, yet again, are stateless individuals and don't have a consulate period. Dream Act students often fall into these categories because they were brought here at a very young age.

There is plenty preventing immigrants from going to college. Tax payers are not subsidizing anything, because undocumented students cannot apply for any federal loans or financial aid. If you are undocumented and go to college, you pay out of pocket, period. There are only a handful of private merit based scholarship that are available to undocumented students. I'm one of the lucky ones.

Out of state tuition argument is moot and I'm tired of the misinformation around the issue. There are only 10 states that have legislation that allows undocumented students to be eligible for in-state tuition BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE BEEN A RESIDENT OF THE STATE FOR AT LEAST 5 YEARS AND GRADUATED FROM A STATE HIGH SCHOOL. I've lived in New York State for over ten years, and my parents have payed taxes into the states treasury every single year. I am a New Yorker and the in-state tuition law recognizes that for purposes of tuition. So "Americans have to pay out of state tuition while undocumented immigrants can pay in-state tuition." is complete bull shit. Residents of the state pay in-state, out of state students pay out of state, undocumented or not. Fair and square, and available only 10 states.

You simply don't want to recognize that I am an American and a human being. If you see this issue for what it is, our fight for basic human rights, the economics of it all of a sudden don't feel that important. I am _American_, educated, and an aspiring entrepreneur. One day I just want to wake up and be able to breathe.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#89

Post by anamax »

crux_ wrote: post #81
InclinedPlane wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPhone: $200 + $70/mo + apps & accessories, call it roughly $1k/year internet/cable: $50-100/mo, call it roughly $1k/year too gaming: $250 xbox 360 or ps3 every 4ish years, plus maybe a $60 game every 3 months, call it $300/year entertainment: 10 DVDs a year at $15 each, a movie in the theater every month at $10 a pop, call it $300/year eating out: $20 including tax and tip every week, call it $1k/year car payment: a…

There's sort of two directions to respond in here. First, you're rather fudging the conclusion that cutting expenses to the bone has bought you a house -- better save for double the time or end up putting 10% or less down, which has been manifestly demonstrated in recent years to be a stupid idea. More generally, this whole conversation has become one of minutia. The fact is that moving ahead financially has become m…

> More generally, this whole conversation has become one of minutia.

Getting ahead is often minutia.

> First, you're rather fudging the conclusion that cutting expenses to the bone has bought you a house

Actually, he didn't cut anyway near "the bone". Write down everything that you spend money on for a month. (Yes, including vending machines.) You'll be amazed, and you'll save a lot of money because you'll find that the benefit of many purchases is less than the cost of writing them down.

> You will have a hard time convincing me, or anyone else paying attention, that this trend is due to some sort of society-wide age-related motivational shortcoming, which seems to be your argument.

We're not claiming that you're lacking motivation. We're claiming that you're spending lots of money that you could spend on something else.

If you're anywhere near "hacker news typical", you're spending 2-3x as some of your neighbors.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#90

Post by aliston »

nick-dap wrote: post #87
aliston wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of illegal immigrants have bank accounts. At least around here (Bay Area) it's kind of a joke -- there's literally a separate line for illegal immigrants to do all-cash transactions. Presumably they use a fake SSN to open the account. Also, there is nothing preventing illegal immigrants from going to college. It's unfair, however, for tax payers to subsidize their education even further when an American citize…

You are either misinformed or are purposely changing the facts. The immigrants who open bank accounts open them using ITIN. Others, can't open a bank account because we lack _any_ documentation that is not expired. Our consulates are refusing to renew anything. Others, yet again, are stateless individuals and don't have a consulate period. Dream Act students often fall into these categories because they were brought…

I'm not changing any facts.

!. Illegal immigrants have bank accounts. I don't know specifically how they do it, which is why I said "presumably"... I just know that they do.

2. There is nothing, legally, preventing illegal immigrants from going to college. Yes, cost might be an issue, but to say that it is the US government's responsibility to make sure that a Mexican citizen, for instance, can go to college in the US is absurd.

3. I don't think you know what "moot"means.

4. In-state tuition is, by definition, a subsidy.

5. To say that "Americans have to pay out of state tuition while undocumented immigrants can pay in-state tuition" isn't bullshit... it's a fact by your own admission.

6. I recognize that illegal immigrants are human beings and that some are "Americans" culturally, philosophically etc. whatever that means. On the other hand, I don't think American citizenship is a "basic human right."

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