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Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

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Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#331

Post by alexandercrohde »

dopamean wrote: post #201

I am a black dude from an upper middle class family that went to private school his whole life and I am very, very familiar with how it's possible to have great ethnic diversity but a severe lack of diversity in other areas (and how negatively that can affect things). Because of this I've often wondered how a company or any group of people can include perspectives that many other people find to be morally reprehensib…

Is your argument if you take a statement and alter it fundamentally to make it about race and the new altered statement is offensive then the original statement was offensive?

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#332

Post by doubleshame »

dopamean wrote: post #318
doubleshame wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to honestly engage with you and break this down. You're a black man at Google. There is a study that says that ON AVERAGE across a large population of people, black men are relatively uneducated and relatively underperform on a particular aptitude test. It is a known fact that although the larger population has 50% black people, only 10% of Google employees are black. Now, let's assume that the common…

I think you've made some incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think about these issues. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll leave a few points so we're on the same page: I have been involved in the hiring process at more than one tech company and it was apparent that there were far, far fewer women in the pipeline than men. Even if we hired every single person who applied the balance would still lean very heavily tow…

You are a man of far more experience than I am. Thank you for sharing.

I believe I included a lot of the general discussion we've seen in my response.

To answer your question as I gleaned it from children of sibling posts: how to foster inclusion of foreign looking ideas:

- always assume good faith (this really covers it all actually)

- listen carefully and understand what was meant

- always speak to the point that was being made instead of to the person, or worse to the words themselves

- allow both yourself and the other people to change their opinions

Ideas are just memes. We need to have the humility to see that and not associate people / ego / self with them.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#333

Post by bostonvaulter2 »

dopamean wrote: post #318
doubleshame wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to honestly engage with you and break this down. You're a black man at Google. There is a study that says that ON AVERAGE across a large population of people, black men are relatively uneducated and relatively underperform on a particular aptitude test. It is a known fact that although the larger population has 50% black people, only 10% of Google employees are black. Now, let's assume that the common…

I think you've made some incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think about these issues. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll leave a few points so we're on the same page: I have been involved in the hiring process at more than one tech company and it was apparent that there were far, far fewer women in the pipeline than men. Even if we hired every single person who applied the balance would still lean very heavily tow…

You've said many things about what you don't believe and what you don't agree with. What of the memo (if any) do you agree with and what do you actually believe about how companies should approach diversity?

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#334

Post by SippinLean »

jazzyk wrote: post #258
edynoid wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I am not alleging this in particular. For all I know, it might be true. Although given Breitbart's history reading anything on that site does not hold much value. After all, they have run stories about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring and continuously deny the scientifically evident reality of climate change, for example.

So, using your logic, I assume nothing in the NYT holds much value to you, because they have run stories (without proving any evidence) about "Trump and the prostitutes" in Moscow?

Do you have any reason or evidence to support that comment?

From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/us/politics/donald-trump-...:

>The chiefs of America’s intelligence agencies last week presented President Obama and President-elect Donald J. Trump with a summary of UNSUBSTANTIATED reports

>The summary is based on memos generated by POLITICAL OPERATIVES SEEKING TO DERAIL MR. TRUMP’S CANDIDACY

>The memos describe sex videos involving prostitutes with Mr. Trump in a 2013 visit to a Moscow hotel

(emphasis mine)

They make it very clear they were unsubstantiated and generated by people with a clear intent and bias, there is no comparison to BB's knowingly publishing falsehoods.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#335

Post by zaptheimpaler »

cdubzzz wrote: post #90
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is some ridiculous shit right here. When a murderer is sentenced for murder... there are 2 levels of understanding the sentencing. One is that he broke the "code of conduct"/law, the deeper is why we consider that to be unlawful (societal harm). Saying he clearly broke the code of conduct just shifts the question to how useful the code of conduct is.. its not some fucking holy unbreakable scripture from the sky,…

> there are 2 levels of understanding the sentencing. One is that he broke the "code of conduct"/law, the deeper is why we consider that to be unlawful (societal harm). I wholeheartedly agree with this. I'll even stick with your example in asking - is murdering someone a good way to start debating the "why" of the law against murder? There are certainly examples where breaking the law proves to be a powerful and effe…

The employee in question tried to start a conversation by posting a memo on email to other people - so starting a conversation the way they are usually started. It was abruptly ended.

Anyways my main point was the breach of code of conduct is just the technical reason he was fired. If you read the line item he was fired for, its clear its vague enough to be used many many different ways. I don't think its productive to focus on whether he broke some rule somewhere when the whole situation that led to the firing is known to us.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#336

Post by muninn_ »

dopamean wrote: post #318
doubleshame wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to honestly engage with you and break this down. You're a black man at Google. There is a study that says that ON AVERAGE across a large population of people, black men are relatively uneducated and relatively underperform on a particular aptitude test. It is a known fact that although the larger population has 50% black people, only 10% of Google employees are black. Now, let's assume that the common…

I think you've made some incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think about these issues. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll leave a few points so we're on the same page: I have been involved in the hiring process at more than one tech company and it was apparent that there were far, far fewer women in the pipeline than men. Even if we hired every single person who applied the balance would still lean very heavily tow…

One thing i have been curious about is why women don't find jobs like construction, or plumbing or electrical work appearing. Any thoughts?

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#337

Post by gurkendoktor »

bostik wrote: post #195
cynicalkane wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also from the memo: > However, portions of the memo violate our Code of Conduct and cross the line by advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace. Our job is to build great products for users that make a difference in their lives. To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK. It is contrary to our basic values and our Code of C…

> In particular, as part of Google's mandatory diversity training, you're presented with Google's internal research showing that diversity hiring yields both better individual and group performance. Are these numbers available to public somewhere? I'm asking because I would dearly want to find comprehensive data. When I've done some of my own research, I have run into sets of studies, which all agree on one thing: mo…

Are you aware of a study that is focused on (software) engineers? The McKinsey study looks at companies' top management for its diversity metrics, but I don't really trust studies across professions. Most anecdotes I've read about the benefits of diversity boil down to "if only we'd had a on the team, we would have noticed ".

But as a developer, my requirements are set by project managers (50% women in my experience), the design and marketing is done by a diverse team, testing is done by other people (or end-users, sigh); so developers are "only" concerned with the actual implementation. Consequently, I don't find it intuitive that more diversity (of gender/ethnicity) would help my team.

Do developers in other companies or countries (Germany here) have wider responsibilities, and thus, diversity is more important? Can engineers at Facebook or Google write user-facing features on a whim? (The terrible mic drop Gmail gimmick comes to mind...) Could that explain the difference in how much teams benefit from diversity?

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#338

Post by jazzyk »

SamBam wrote: post #327
jazzyk wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, using your logic, I assume nothing in the NYT holds much value to you, because they have run stories (without proving any evidence) about "Trump and the prostitutes" in Moscow?

Has the NYT ever claimed that Trump met prostitutes in Moscow? Go ahead, find a link saying they have. Did Breitbart push the PizzaGate sex ring story? [Yes]( https://twitter.com/BreitbartNews/status/789143692540055552 ), [absolutely]( https://twitter.com/AndrewBreitbart/status/33636278100561920 ).

This is off-topic, so very briefly:

The NYT published at least two stories about an "unverified" dossier on Trump. Admitting it is unverified, yet they claim:

1. "consequences have been incalculable and will play out long past Inauguration Day" 2. "By all accounts, Mr. Steele has an excellent reputation"

Is it just me, or do they (subtly) suggest that, while "unverified", there may be something to the dossier?

If it is unverified (and quite damning), why publish it?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/us/politics/donald-trump-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/11/us/politics/donald-trump-...

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#339

Post by jazzyk »

SippinLean wrote: post #334
jazzyk wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, using your logic, I assume nothing in the NYT holds much value to you, because they have run stories (without proving any evidence) about "Trump and the prostitutes" in Moscow?

Do you have any reason or evidence to support that comment? From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/us/politics/donald-trump-... : >The chiefs of America’s intelligence agencies last week presented President Obama and President-elect Donald J. Trump with a summary of UNSUBSTANTIATED reports >The summary is based on memos generated by POLITICAL OPERATIVES SEEKING TO DERAIL MR. TRUMP’S CANDIDACY >The memos describe sex…

Please see my reply in another sub-thread.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#340

Post by SippinLean »

jazzyk wrote: post #338
SamBam wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has the NYT ever claimed that Trump met prostitutes in Moscow? Go ahead, find a link saying they have. Did Breitbart push the PizzaGate sex ring story? [Yes]( https://twitter.com/BreitbartNews/status/789143692540055552 ), [absolutely]( https://twitter.com/AndrewBreitbart/status/33636278100561920 ).

This is off-topic, so very briefly: The NYT published at least two stories about an "unverified" dossier on Trump. Admitting it is unverified, yet they claim: 1. "consequences have been incalculable and will play out long past Inauguration Day" 2. "By all accounts, Mr. Steele has an excellent reputation" Is it just me, or do they (subtly) suggest that, while "unverified", there may be something to the dossier? If it…

>If it is unverified (and quite damning), why publish it?

They are reporting on the effects of unsubstantiated reports, not publishing them as fact. A far cry from BB knowingly publishing falsehoods.

>Has the NYT ever claimed that Trump met prostitutes in Moscow? Go ahead, find a link saying they have.

You skipped over that part. Have they ever claimed that?

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