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Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

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Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#221

Post by runeks »

andrewla wrote: post #192

I can't seem to find any more details on the survey other than basic methodology. The thing that I'm curious about is the language used in the survey. In a sense, you could argue that some of the disparity in results comes from what people would interpret as the meaning of "fight for your country", but I'm curious as to whether the ambiguity of this phrase (fight at the behest of my country, fight to defend my countr…

It would be interesting to focus on only e.g. English-speaking countries, and see how great the variance is within this group.

It’s also interesting to see that the countries which are often invaded/occupied by Western nations are much more willing to fight, whereas the occupiers/invading nations seem less willing. Could it be that Westerners answer “no” because their idea of “fighting for your country” is starting a war somewhere else, whereas to the people of Vietnam (89% willingness) the same question conjures up an image of being invaded by a foreign nation, and defending themselves against that?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#222

Post by vetinari »

oblio wrote: post #208
vetinari wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all European countries had Molotov-Ribbentrop-like pact with Germany, including UK and Poland. MR-pact was just the last one; made after UK and France sabotaged Molotov's effort to make pact with them and after the Austrian Anschluss and breaking of Czechoslovakia. They wanted Germany to attack the USSR and not to be bound to help, just like they looked the other way after Poland was attacked later that year.

Any links for this? It's the first time I hear about it.

For the Polish pact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_Non-Aggr...

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwoygYdTmY is an exchange between Tusk and Putin on the topic. I haven't found a better video.

About the Molotov negotiation, it is in the book by Nikolai Starikov, Who set Hitler against Stalin?, (ISBN 978-5-496-00332-2). It is in Russian, unfortunately. Excerpts have been translated to English, the part I was talking about is here: https://orientalreview.org/2015/04/18/episode-15-poland-betr...

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#223

Post by reading-at-work »

snakeanus wrote: post #204
justin66 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There truly is nothing more disgusting than war The first counterexample that came to mind: to be exterminated without even putting up a fight.

It seems that you are assuming that the attacking country would employ some form of genocide tactic.

It's a valid example. There are people alive today who remember that exact scenario happening, in Western Europe itself no less.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#224

Post by Bartweiss »

darklajid wrote: post #5

That's one of the rare moments where I feel that I can relate to my fellow countrymen - I'm German. Why would you 'fight a war for your country'? Given the way this is phrased that doesn't seem to talk about fighting in defense of one's country (I'd like to see the stats for that as well) unless my English as a foreign language skills fail me?

The main place this survey gets cited is in discussing NATO obligations.

So I'd like to see someone ask about that explicitly: not defense of German borders, but defense of (for example) Estonia against a Russian invasion. Thoughts there?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#225

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

rjprins wrote: post #215
ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars... ok, so obv a hypothetical scenario - some other country invades Belgium, your country starts drafting ppl into the army to defend itself - you saying you're going to evade the draft? Why?

Depends on the invader? What if it's the USA "liberating" Belgium from it's evil government? Who says the current government is better than the one taking over? What are countries anyway, most of them don't align with cultural or language barriers. Fuck patriotism, fuck flags, fuck any tribalism that powerful people are using to get others to do what they want.

HN is probably not the best place/format to have an in-depth "ideological" discussion but I'll just throw this out there - the aggressive invading side doesn't care about your feelings or affiliations.

There are situations where you'll either have to flee or fight or surrender (which basically means giving up your way of life, becoming a 2nd class citizen at best etc).

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#226

Post by kofejnik »

vetinari wrote: post #180
kofejnik wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian TV has operated in patriotic imperial brainwashing mode for the past 15 years (and their culture in general - for the last 300 years), so no surprise here.

Russia has been invaded every 80-100 years for the last 1000 years. I have understanding for them, it is already some 75 years since the last one.

Russia has waged dozens of aggressive wars during that period, including 2 since 2008

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#227

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #199
metafunctor wrote: post #139

In Finland, the army exists for the purpose of defending Finland against attack. Hence the name: Finnish Defence Forces. Finnish males serve a mandatory 6-12 months in the Finnish Defence Forces. It's a citizen's duty here; some people opt for a civil service duty. Thus, when asked a question like this, most Finns will automatically assume defending Finland against a military attack.

>>Hence the name: Finnish Defence Forces. "Wehrmacht" means something along the lines of the "defense force" too. Not saying the rest of your reasoning is wrong, just pointing out that calling your army a "defense force" doesn't necessarily mean that it's used for defense only...

Does it? I thought "Wehr" translated to "War". (Disclaimer: I don't actually speak German.)

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#228

Post by 0xbear »

lorenzfx wrote: post #122
0xbear wrote: post #38

Understandable. Germany has experienced crushing, humiliating defeat not once, but twice in a hundred years, and the second time it was abundandtly clear that they were on the wrong side of history. No wonder the fightin' spirit hasn't recovered. That said, when certain substances start hitting the fan, no one will ask you whether you want to fight. Read some WW2 memoirs: the shit was so horrific that even hardened p…

Unfortunately, the first time wasn't as crushing as the second time, at least it wasn't perceived as such.

Actually I think the opposite is true. The winning side chose to rub Germany's nose in it the first time around, both economically and politically. The result was the rise of national-socialist party, with "national" bit addressing political humiliation, and "socialist" promising to deal with poverty and economic recovery. Note that this did not happen the second time around, and allies occupied Germany for quite a while and helped it rebuild and become a democracy.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#229

Post by Sommersonn »

vetinari wrote: post #222
oblio wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any links for this? It's the first time I hear about it.

For the Polish pact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_Non-Aggr... Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwoygYdTmY is an exchange between Tusk and Putin on the topic. I haven't found a better video. About the Molotov negotiation, it is in the book by Nikolai Starikov, Who set Hitler against Stalin?, (ISBN 978-5-496-00332-2). It is in Russian, unfortunately. Excerpts have been translated to English…

You're confusing non-aggression pacts with MR pact, which in fact DIVIDED Europe between two different dictators and basically lead to WW2.

Also that guy Starikov is nota a historian, but an ultra-right nationalist playing current Kremlin tune. So his "works" should be taken with a truckloads of salt.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#230

Post by Sommersonn »

vetinari wrote: post #207
arethuza wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but only the Soviets joined in with the Germans in invading Poland!

Yes, but somehow magically they stopped at Curzon line. I.e. they took back exactly the same lands, that Poles took them 20 years before. At the dawn of WW2, Poles weren't innocent bystander either. They happily tooks parts of Czechoslovakia.

What "same lands" are you talking about? Poland had same rights as Bolsheviks to parts of Russian Empire.

If you don't know, Lenin proclaimed that Bolsheviks aren't successors to Tsarist Russia.

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