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Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

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Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#201

Post by batushka »

oblio wrote: post #179
batushka wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never heard of war that wasn't smeared by other side. When rooskies bombed Finland, Molotov told they're delivering bread baskets to starving Finns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_bread_basket

Nice trolling, I guess? When there's a conflict, I generally look at the "weight" of the opponents. Can you, with a straight face, call Iraq a real opponent or even threat for the US? More than that, do you think the US really needed allies to invade Iraq? (except for trying to use them to legitimize the war).

It's very easy to throw statements after the facts and aftermath is known, many years after it happened. But when events are hot, it's another story. Lets forget about Iraq, and return thinking about notion of ally, in it's essence.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#202

Post by wonderwonder »

draugadrotten wrote: post #39
capex wrote: post #25

Having spent 9 years in the military, I can say with some confidence that even soldiers are not willing to fight a war. War is evil. No one looks forward to it (except the generals). But when its thrust upon you, you rise up to the occasion and defend your motherland.

Some European countries, like Sweden, now have 25% of residents with a motherland which is not the country they live in. Would an Afhan boy living in Sweden fight for Sweden, or would he just take a flight back home to his real motherland? Would an American living in Germany fight for Germany, or take the next flight home? I think we all know the answer, and therefore large parts of the people living on European soil…

The French Foreign Legion would like a word...

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#203

Post by justin66 »

sattoshi wrote: post #4

Extra discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q433o/percentage_... I am really curious about a more thourough breakdown of these numbers. I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives.

> I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives.

Many, many immigrants serve in the US armed forces. Some move to the front of the line to earn their citizenship that way, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the kind of people who are attracted to living in the US also relate to the idea of military service.

It's understandable that it would work differently in Europe. Most of those countries definitely have a different "brand," as it were...

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#204

Post by snakeanus »

justin66 wrote: post #197
mnm1 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I totally agree. As an immigrant, I sure as hell wouldn't fight for either of the countries I'm a citizen of or any other for that matter. The whole idea of fighting for your country is stupid, idiotic, and frankly insane, especially if there is an alternative. It seems to me even natives, especially in Western Europe, are now realizing this. That's great to see. There truly is nothing more disgusting than war,…

> There truly is nothing more disgusting than war The first counterexample that came to mind: to be exterminated without even putting up a fight.

It seems that you are assuming that the attacking country would employ some form of genocide tactic.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#205

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

ddnb wrote: post #3

Belgian here, as a resident of one of the bottom 3 countries I have to say I thought about this question myself a few times in the past. Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage. So to this question I would have to answer 'no' even though that doesn't mean I'd give up on my country.

>> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars...

ok, so obv a hypothetical scenario - some other country invades Belgium, your country starts drafting ppl into the army to defend itself - you saying you're going to evade the draft? Why?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#206

Post by logfromblammo »

I would assume that the question was posed in the subject's native tongue. I would further assume that different languages impose different meanings on the word or phrase used for "your country".

For instance, in US English, there is a clear distinction between "country", "nation", "state", and "government", and those words have slightly different meanings to different people.

Thus, the question--with the same wording--could be interpreted by one as "Would you take up arms to defend the people in your neighborhood from military attack?" and by another as "Would you murder strangers for the benefit of rich oligarchs that never actually put themselves at risk of harm?"

I imagine if you asked those two different questions explicitly to the same person, you would see a large gap in responses.

As such, without more specific information on how the survey was conducted, I'd be cautious about comparing results across language groups and cultures. I imagine the answers are heavily influenced by the sense "Would you re-fight your country's previous wars?"

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#207

Post by vetinari »

arethuza wrote: post #188
vetinari wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all European countries had Molotov-Ribbentrop-like pact with Germany, including UK and Poland. MR-pact was just the last one; made after UK and France sabotaged Molotov's effort to make pact with them and after the Austrian Anschluss and breaking of Czechoslovakia. They wanted Germany to attack the USSR and not to be bound to help, just like they looked the other way after Poland was attacked later that year.

Yes, but only the Soviets joined in with the Germans in invading Poland!

Yes, but somehow magically they stopped at Curzon line. I.e. they took back exactly the same lands, that Poles took them 20 years before.

At the dawn of WW2, Poles weren't innocent bystander either. They happily tooks parts of Czechoslovakia.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#208

Post by oblio »

vetinari wrote: post #178
arethuza wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the start both France and the UK actually considered sending troops to assist Finland against the Soviets - this was when the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was in place so the Soviets were effectively Nazi allies at that point.

Almost all European countries had Molotov-Ribbentrop-like pact with Germany, including UK and Poland. MR-pact was just the last one; made after UK and France sabotaged Molotov's effort to make pact with them and after the Austrian Anschluss and breaking of Czechoslovakia. They wanted Germany to attack the USSR and not to be bound to help, just like they looked the other way after Poland was attacked later that year.

Any links for this? It's the first time I hear about it.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#209

Post by gehwartzen »

derefr wrote: post #44
blowski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Would I be willing to fight a war because a fascist superpower was killing millions of human beings in my country? Probably, yes. Would I risk my life to protect the Conservative Party and banking institutions? Less likely.

Would you be willing to be part of a pre-emptive attack against a much more prosperous neighbouring country with empire-building aspirations? How about a pre-emptive attack against a country where populist polls show overwhelming support for invading your country, even if its current administration is against the idea? How about joining in to defend one neighbour against another, aggressor neighbour—one which you hav…

Exactly. There is quite a bit of clarification needed for someone to fully answer the question and depending on how you define certain terms the responses, I would imagine, would quite different.

"Fight a War" : Front line with arms? Controlling a drone from thousands of miles away? Being a military medic, engineer, or strategist? Propaganda writer?

"country": Sovereign physical boarders? Extends to protecting assets/people overseas? Cyber footprint? The political party in charge? The constitution? The population?

by whom?: Invading foreign force? Internal civil uprising? Military coup? aliens? ;)

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#210

Post by usrusr »

alkonaut wrote: post #112
keganunderwood wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how this is possible outside of science fiction but I wonder how popular military service would be on a historical timeline, all else being equal but the variables being we turn on or off a livable basic income and free of cost health care (like medicare) for all. Would people still be eager to join the US military?

The military as a refuge for those who would otherwise have a hard time finding work/education/healthcare etc is probably a US phenomenon - and the US military probably would be less attractive if more progressive politics meant better conditions for all. In countries with pro armies outside the US I believe it's more like any other job such as a policeman. In countries with conscription it's not even a job, it's mor…

While the US might be an outlier amongst postindustrial western countries in terms of the military being a survival opportunity for the poor, in the grand historical picture this has probably been the norm more often than the exception. When lost crops meant that you would not likely survive the next winter, a plundering army could count on a steady supply of recruits, much like a fire uses its own great to prepare the raw fuel for quick oxidation.
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