On managing outrage in Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#421

Post by geofft » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 12:40 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #335

geofft wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the memo, and this seems like an accurate summary. It's phrased in words that sound reasonable, but the ideas aren't reasoned, and it's a particularly common trick to use reasonable words to express unreasoned ideas to fool those who only skim a text.

See, that's kind of the problem right there. You define the ideas to be "unreasoned", and therefore any presentation of those ideas is unacceptable, no matter how stated. Can you state why you find the ideas unreasonable, without some variant of "all right-thinking people know", and without misrepresenting the ideas?

Sure. See this comment I just made in another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14956998

The trouble with avoiding "all right-thinking people know" is that I have no idea how to find a solid citation for the claim that, say, software engineering is at least as much about people as things. It's a thing you will find anyone senior who's good at their job to agree with. Would you accept books by experienced software engineers as evidence of this point?

Once you grant that point, much of the argument falls apart, as it's clear he's arguing about very junior-level coding and not software engineering as a whole.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#422

Post by aeharding » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:07 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #412

Const-me wrote: post #394

In US, only 1.5% plumbers are female: http://www.contractormag.com/blog/stop-calling-yourself-plum... In IT, in 2008 women held 25% of all professional IT jobs in the US: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorikozlowski/2012/03/22/women-... An order of magnitude difference. I have never seen discussions about gender-based discrimination for plumbers, or biological or sociological factors preventing women to seek career in…

>>I have never seen discussions about gender-based discrimination for plumbers In general only jobs which have a high value of effort/money-earned are preferable to anybody. Im pretty sure most plumbers don't get into plumbing because they are passionate about it. Also curiously you can be passionate about something if you earn well doing it. So, ultimately its all about home much money you can make, at what effort.…

Are you saying that women are too good for plumbing, but men aren't? That's pretty sexist.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#423

Post by thecupisblue » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:18 PM UTC

schimmy_changa wrote: post #298

asciicircum wrote: post #189

Could someone opposed to the arguments the manifesto makes explain to me what quotes caused them to strongly dislike it? Reading the reactions to the manifesto I'm left feeling like I'm taking crazy pills. I must have read a different manifesto. AFAICT the main idea of the manifesto is that biological differences between men and women account for part of the representation gap. This seems to be perfectly logical and…

The issue is that he is trying to solve an social problem via engineering, and in trying to simplify the problem, not spending enough time researching, and by "de emphasizing empathy" he takes a step backwards. Basically, he sets forward incorrect assertions about biological differences without the self-awareness about why he takes those differences as truth. For instance "Women on average show a higher interest in p…

>but it's overshadowed by his lack of understanding of the more serious problem of bias and discrimination of women in tech.

Huh I didn't get that, I actually thought he understands there is a problem with bias and discrimination, but he also points out there are other reasons why there is not a balance and why there won't be a 50/50 balance and forcing it might be bad. Now, I don't agree with his writing completely and honestly haven't done the research to know if it's true or not, and personally feel like the problem is rooted in education of our young ones.

Still, I'm afraid to speak out on this issue and this is the first time I've voiced I even partially agree with him. Honestly, I just skipped discussing this issue.

> The people unhappy with him are frustrated by always having to make the same damn argument to the same people who somehow think behavioral evolution is the end-all-be-all, as if somehow the computer they're typing on was a natural result of that evolution.

I don't get that feeling and that's why I don't want to comment on it. I get a feeling like he does, anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit the super-uber-equality narrative isn't countered with arguments, but attacked, shamed and "blacklisted". As people in tech, an industry that is supposed to build a better feature, I believe we should be better than this, we should be rational and use arguments, we shouldn't attack, shame or fire someone who doesn't agree with us but discuss it. Really makes me sad and I hope I get to cash out and leave tech as soon I can. Is it fair that I'm just 25 and don't want to work on what I love anymore because people have turned it into a toxic community where differing opinions are assaulted? Isn't equality to all people, views and opinions what diversity is about?

(Note: This isn't as much as an reply to your post as much as I wanted to reply but it lead me to a mini-rant. Just like, fuck this, I don't wanna be a part of this shithole anymore)

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#424

Post by kamaal » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

aeharding wrote: post #422

kamaal wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I have never seen discussions about gender-based discrimination for plumbers In general only jobs which have a high value of effort/money-earned are preferable to anybody. Im pretty sure most plumbers don't get into plumbing because they are passionate about it. Also curiously you can be passionate about something if you earn well doing it. So, ultimately its all about home much money you can make, at what effort.…

Are you saying that women are too good for plumbing, but men aren't? That's pretty sexist.

You said this, and attributed to me, and posed it to me as a question.

All I'm saying is no body is going to ask for increased diversity in coal mines. This is simple, and not even that hard to understand. Nobody wants to do a job where money/effort-done is very low.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#425

Post by aeharding » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 2:52 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #424

aeharding wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that women are too good for plumbing, but men aren't? That's pretty sexist.

You said this, and attributed to me, and posed it to me as a question. All I'm saying is no body is going to ask for increased diversity in coal mines. This is simple, and not even that hard to understand. Nobody wants to do a job where money/effort-done is very low.

I know a handful of plumbers that love their job (hours/pay/flexibility), and they're pretty awesome people.

"Nobody wants to do a job where money/effort-done is very low" is a generalization.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#426

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #276

rcoveson wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the author used dubious rhetorical tactics (e.g. stating scientific "facts" without citation), he was never hostile towards any one person or group of people. Even if the argument he was making was that Google should fire or cut the pay of its female software engineers (which it wasn't), it wouldn't necessarily be aggressive. That word is not applicable here. And yes, I have been in a situation where my merit a…

The media stripped out the citations. I haven't checked that the citations are any good... but he certainly put them in.

Out of Interest: are they allowed to do this?

Surely he owns copyright, and his work is being published without consent?

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#427

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

Shank wrote: post #319

rhapsodic wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sounds true, but is actually incorrect. Whenever women speak out on social media, they get at the very least abuse, but also often rape threats and death threats against them. That is retaliation, plain and simple. Rape threats and death threats are illegal. They should be reported, investigated and prosecuted. (As an aside, I've seen many instances where women claim to have received rape or death threats, wit…

> Rape threats and death threats are illegal. They should be reported, investigated and prosecuted. (As an aside, I've seen many instances where women claim to have received rape or death threats, with no mention that they reported them to the authorities. I find that perplexing.) True! They should be, but they frequently aren't because there's a significant amount of time, friction, and effort required to do an accu…

> time, friction, and effort required

Is it important, or isn't it? I'm pretty sure you'd find the time to do something that would save your job, so shouldn't a rape threat be the same?

> posted a picture of my house

This would be taken seriously, but aren't the vast majority of rape threats.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#428

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 3:20 PM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #314

schimmy_changa wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds true, but is actually incorrect. Whenever women speak out on social media, they get at the very least abuse, but also often rape threats and death threats against them. That is retaliation, plain and simple. That's just the loud stuff. There's also the quiet "oh she's too much of a firebrand" or "oh she won't fit into the small team because she might call people out for their casual sexism" that happens a…

> This sounds true, but is actually incorrect. Whenever women speak out on social media, they get at the very least abuse, but also often rape threats and death threats against them. That is retaliation, plain and simple. Rape threats and death threats are illegal. They should be reported, investigated and prosecuted. (As an aside, I've seen many instances where women claim to have received rape or death threats, wit…

> rape threats and death threat

Which any 14 year old with internet access can make, the seriousness of which depends entirely on your perspective. I note, "I'm gonna rape you" isn't taken as seriously when directed against a male, meaning there is a strong component of interpretation there. What do you think the probability (of an attempt) of any particular rape threat made online is?

In the meanwhile, we are comparing this to the real outcome of someone being fired. It seems an apples and oranges comparison; Either we compare threats of rape, to threats of being fired - or actual instances of both. You can't balance real consequences with speculated ones.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#429

Post by currymj » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #389

currymj wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean at the end of the day the story about “Marxist intellectuals” making an enemy out of “straight, cis white males” after “class warfare” failed to overthrow society sounds almost exactly like the Frankfurt School/“cultural Marxism” conspiracy theory. (Its a specific conspiracy theory btw, not just the general and true observation that the left is more concerned with race and gender than it used to be.) Maybe it’…

> sounds almost exactly like the Frankfurt School/“cultural Marxism” conspiracy theory Nope, it does not. The only common things are that both talk about Marxists (as do many other conversations, including ours) and about gender politics (as do many other conversations, including guess what). Not everybody who opposes Marxists is a Nazi who thinks Jews from Frankfurt School want to take over the world. And not everyb…

In my experience, especially the US south, that specific narrative ("did you know that Marxist intellectuals started promoting gender and racial theory after their attempts at class warfare failed to overthrow the US?") has usually indicated that somebody's about to start going on at the very least about Alex Jones nonsense, perhaps about how George Soros controls the world. Online people tend to take off the mask and you get actual Holocaust denial.

If someone says "the left, including Marxists, is concerned with gender and race in a way it wasn't previously" then I agree totally. Likewise if someone mentions that various Marxist intellectuals have contributed to political theory around gender, race, etc., that's just a fact. If someone says "I'm a conservative, the politics around race and gender are harmful", I'll disagree strongly, but that's it.

It's this specific story or narrative that Marxist intellectuals were trying to use class warfare to gain power, and when it failed they shifted to promoting race and gender based politics to gain power, that is very troubling for me due to repeated experience. Citing it offhand as a commonplace makes me wonder whether he shares the same intellectual influences as the other people I've heard say it.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#430

Post by sheepmullet » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #288

sheepmullet wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me present an argument: Are you suggesting the author put forward a similar argument?

It's the same category of argument. It also has 'indisputable' statistics supporting it. It does not attack particular persons, just the policy of hiring them. It disparages their co-workers for being born wrong. Much like the manifesto, it's a slam-your-head-into-the-textbook example of racism. People have also made that exact same argument for decades. Racism was not a moustache-twirling Klanner setting crosses afi…

He made the exact opposite kind of argument actually.

His argument is let's treat people as individuals and we should stop using inappropriate grouping to push a discriminatory agenda.

An accurate analogy using race might be:

White people are more shy on average than Black people. Companies are using this statistic to justify white only social skills classes.

I think that discriminates against all the black people who are also shy. Let's just make it so any shy person can go to these classes.