> The past few days have been very difficult for many at the company, and we need to find a way to debate issues on which we might disagree ...So we've fired the person starting the debate? Am I missing something here?
As the note basically says; starting a debate does not excuse you from suggesting that some of your co-workers are there because of a "lowered bar", your evidence being psuedo-scientific bullshit about the tech-skill distribution among minorities and women.
Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
91–100 of 423 posts
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#92Quoting Sundar Pichai (Google CEO), emphasis mine: > At the same time, there are co-workers who are questioning whether they can safely express their views in the workplace (especially those with a minority viewpoint) . They too feel under threat, and that is also not OK. People must feel free to express dissent. So to be clear again, many points raised in the memo—such as the portions criticizing Google’s trainings,…
We all know that men and women are different but under no circumstances can you club a large section of population and say they are inferior in some respect ... hitler did it with the Jews, whites did it to the blacks , Japanese did it to the Chinese and history is rife with extreme examples of the Dangers of generalization of a large section of population. Our job as human civilization is to evolve positively and to…
Well, that escalated quickly[0].
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#93This thread seems to be a perfect demonstration of the problems when it comes to diversity in tech. People just don't seem to get it. I see the same thing in threads around big SV names sexually harassing women (and in those cases it blows my mind even more that people don't get that it's a problem). It seems like a lot of people are basing their opinions on logic (fine) but in a perfect world where everyone has equa…
This thread feels like a Breitbart comment section.
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
"your evidence being psuedo-scientific bullshit" *Citation needed.
The fact that these engineers passed the same hiring process, consisting of problem solving, that other employees also were subjected to, and that these workers deliver enough value to pass the fitness evaluations? If you're suggesting they were subjected to different practices, contrary to what HR at Google is stating, then you better cough up evidence. Do the women and minorities at Google perform worse than White…
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
A strong message about breaking the code of conduct, yes. The message here seems abundantly clear and I have trouble understanding how it can miscontrued to be anything other than reacting to a clear violation. I can't even think of how to restate what is so clearly laid out in the note. I wouldn't rule out the potential that there is uneven enforcement of such violations, and that would make this action look questio…
Not sure whether a management decision to remove the author is helping or hurting the goal to create an environment that isn't intimidating. ..because - compared to what was written in the memo - this is a very intimidating thing to do.
Intimidating is a strong word for this, I think. I would call it intimidating if the original memo was a challenge to the code of conduct, as opposed to a violation of it.
Either way, I agree that other employees could see this as intimidation and that makes the whole situation much more complex. I suppose that ultimately I would not stand 100% in defense of the course of action, but I am also not grabbing my pitchfork over it.
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
As the note basically says; starting a debate does not excuse you from suggesting that some of your co-workers are there because of a "lowered bar", your evidence being psuedo-scientific bullshit about the tech-skill distribution among minorities and women.
What can Google or any other company do to hire more from one group (example, women) other then by making it easier (lowering the bar) for those groups to be hired?
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
The memo itself was incoherent. Many of its statements made sense for debate, and the author himself pointed out that you can't tell much about any individual from the general data, which I think has not been focused on enough. He seemed to think he was doing everybody a service and that his views were not detrimental to anybody. But the actual choices in how to express the generalities showed really bad judgement an…
Have you read the memo? It's coherent. People just don't like what it says. Please read this article which includes responses to the memo from four scientists who study the subject matter: http://archive.is/z6xxP > The author of the Google essay on issues related to diversity gets nearly all of the science and its implications exactly right. [...] This essay may not get everything 100% right, but it is certainly not…
And the next sentence:
> Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.
- This is bad communicating. It's incredibly vague about what % of the difference he thinks is biological, and what % is social/structural/historical, the things he completely fails to address. This "I'm just saying!" vagueness leaves the door open to an extremely wide range of interpretations. There's no argument there. It's all fudgy-hedgy. It's not coherent.
> I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).
- This is where he wants to be. The high bar he sets for himself. The point that evidence should not be discounted because it doesn't fit the wished-for results is important. Results are results. His writing does not live up to what he establishes in this paragraph. He says "I hope it's clear" and he does qualify a lot of his statements with "I'm not saying xyz about ALL individuals" ... he's trying.
These are two points that give me the sense of an overall incoherent argument:
> Discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech is as misguided and biased as mandating increases for women’s representation in the homeless, work-related and violent deaths, prisons, and school dropouts.
- This is manifestly ridiculous. Accepting the truth, that some differences between people are biological, does not mean that historical and cultural factors don't matter and can't be adjusted for, or that it is misguided to explicitly direct resources towards increasing diversity. That's a whole other debate, about how to do it, and who it's fair to. It IS arbitrary, and artificial, to mandate certain proportions of jobs be given to certain "diversity" groups. It's an imperfect solution to a stupid problem. I wish we didn't have the problem in the first place, but we do, and a big clumsy solution is better than no solution. But a lot of the value of diversity is not, as Geoffrey Miller posits in the article you linked, derived from those inherent (seemingly rather small?) biological differences between those people. It is in the much larger difference in how they have experienced life and the world since birth as a member of whatever group(s). He claims he things Google should "try to correct for existing biases" but not discriminate "just to increase the representation of women" ... well this is incoherent, because the second one is kind of the only mechanism to achieve the first one, isn't it? Can we correct for bias and cultural/historical/institutional effects without intentionally tipping the scale a little bit in the direction of the people affected by those issues?
That IS another, connected, thorny problem. I get that discrimination and suffering cuts both ways.
> Having representative viewpoints is important for those designing and testing our products, but the benefits are less clear for those more removed from UX.
- It's UX all the way down. The whole company affects the UX. But in any case, the value knowledge of "outsiders" is not just about teaching Google how to SELL things to those same outsiders. Here he shows he fundamentally does not get why Google chooses to go out of its way to artificially increase diversity, and how it (at least in theory) helps the business be more successful overall. This is perhaps the most broadly "offensive" idea here.
> Prioritize intention.
- This is wishful thinking. Although, by and large, I do try to do this in my own life, and give people the benefit of the doubt, it is also incumbent on the person doing the communication to understand what they are saying and implying by their words and actions. We each have to manage that ourselves, and accept that fact that we will spend our whole lives learning to be better communicators. Not all communicative gestures can reveal their intentions, most can only be interpreted.
> Once we acknowledge that not all differences are socially constructed or due to discrimination, we open our eyes to a more accurate view of the human condition which is necessary if we actually want to solve problems.
- I agree with this. However, I think he weighs the biological differences too heavily compared to the vast array of non-biological factors at play in the choices people make. They are all connected. I hope that most people don't dismiss the actual biology... it's more about, in the real world with actual individuals making choices about what to do in life, what factors may influence them and might some of those not yet be perfectly calibrated? I don't think 50/50 is the ideal target in every possible industry, but I do think we have still got a lot of intentional correcting to do before we remove structures that specifically support women, minorities, and others in succeeding once they have made a choice about what they want to do. This "not all differences are socially constructed" argument is almost a straw man, I think.. do serious people think all humans have identical biology and hormones? Hopefully not.
But ideally all humans would have identical freedom to choose without feeling like the very nature of their body is already closing doors to them before they even start. Which for thousands of years was the case, and is still the case in many places. It would be good to get away from that.
I agree with many points throughout his memo - respect for science, an overall sense of perspective to question whether we may have gone too far, etc. And do think that even if 50/50 men and women is not the exact natural balance for programmers, it is healthy and good for any business to try to roughly include a good sample of the many kinds of people that live in the world, and be attentive to that without going too crazy on exact ratios all the time (which maybe Google does?).
Policies that do this don't (and can't) address the biological component because, as he accepts in the memo, the aggregate effects are not really applicable to any specific individual.
And finally, while Jussim says he "gets nearly all of the science and its implications exactly right" and Miller says his claims are "are stated quite carefully" ... I vehemently disagree. I can't find where in the memo he claims anything other than something like "these things MAY have SOME effect on why women do not participate at 50%". Which is, on the face of it, of course, true. But how is that careful? How is that getting "the implications exactly right"? I think this is why he is in such hot water. He is really, really, loose with how much he thinks this affects things in real life.
I basically agree with Schmitt:
>Within this sea of gender bias, should Google use various practices (affirmative action is not just one thing) to especially encourage capable women of joining (and enjoying) the Google workplace? I vote yes. At the same time, should we be able to openly discuss and be informed by some of the real psychological sex differences that might account for variation in men’s and women’s workplace performance? In the right context, I vote yes to that, too.
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#98> The past few days have been very difficult for many at the company, and we need to find a way to debate issues on which we might disagree ...So we've fired the person starting the debate? Am I missing something here?
As the note basically says; starting a debate does not excuse you from suggesting that some of your co-workers are there because of a "lowered bar", your evidence being psuedo-scientific bullshit about the tech-skill distribution among minorities and women.
From the original memo:
> However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:
> ...
> Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps get a little feedback from somebody likely to be affected by it, or HR, before blasting it to the whole company? That's a better way. Separating out the legitimate issues from the speculation about potential reasons (which to me is where most of the nonsense lies) would have been a better way. And unless the internal memo system is the only way to communicate within Google, he probably had other options to pi…
None of those outcomes sound like a company-wide discussion or healthy debate though.
Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai
#100Quoting Sundar Pichai (Google CEO), emphasis mine: > At the same time, there are co-workers who are questioning whether they can safely express their views in the workplace (especially those with a minority viewpoint) . They too feel under threat, and that is also not OK. People must feel free to express dissent. So to be clear again, many points raised in the memo—such as the portions criticizing Google’s trainings,…
The moral of the story is something most adults figure out by their mid 20s: if you like your job, keep your mouth shut about your political/religious beliefs. And despite what any employer will tell you about their workplace being an open forum, they are full of shit. What they mean is, it's an open forum to agree with management.
Minority viewpoints in tech become silenced and their author(s) ostracized by the biases of a mob mentality. It doesn't even matter what you write because most people won't even read the original source, instead floating by on derivative tweets and extremely biased summaries (in whatever direction agrees with their existing views).
Irrespective of the original memo, and this is something I've felt more strongly in the past couple years, it's just not safe to share dissenting viewpoints in tech anymore.
We used to be the industry where anything could be discussed critically and the most objectively correct answer could win (logic! science!). Nowadays it's so political and heated, I've found it best to just stay out of the discussion and not share dissenting views anymore. I think the real problem we need to fix is being able to have rational critical discussion around topics we disagree with.