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American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

nytimes.com

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Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#71

Post by starkfist »

robryan wrote: post #48
wfjackson3 wrote: post #11

Political science with a history minor. I feel bad for him, but what did he expect?

I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.

Universities don't promote this. Most humanities departments are fighting for their lives because of declining numbers of students and limited institutional support.

The #1 major in the USA is "Business."

Hacker News constructs this imaginary world of lazy "liberal arts" majors with degrees in french literature and can't find jobs. But, hardly anyone actually majors in subjects that people think of when they think of the "liberal arts." Only 27% in the USA even graduate from college at all. Thus in terms of actual numbers, there really aren't that many spoiled humanities majors loafing about.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#72

Post by capital_omega »

kiba wrote: post #40
capital_omega wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an entirely different country from what it was in the 19th century. Although early industrial America was brutal in a lot of ways that our society isn't, it was possible to "work your way up" then. Now it's not. The work environment in 1900 had a one-tier society-- with extreme inequality and brutality within that tier, but it was still only one tier. Line workers could become foremen who could become manager…

You got any evidence to support that? My family does the exact same thing, except a bit faster. My sister already went to college. My relatives are business owners of nail shops. Granted it's a only a single anecdotal point. Beside, startups founders plunge automatically to "poverty" level just so they can start their own business and then rise to millionaire status or more if they's successful.

Startup founders do not go into poverty.

To do a startup, you have to be middle-class, at least, from the start, because otherwise you have no hope of getting the funding or building up the savings.

The most successful startups are an exception to the fact of American society being tiered, but these types of sociological statements always admit exceptions. If you want to see our tiered society in action, note how difficult it is to get venture capital and press coverage if you're not from an upper-class background, and compare it to how easily rich kids are able to get these resources.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#73

Post by starkfist »

capital_omega wrote: post #72
kiba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got any evidence to support that? My family does the exact same thing, except a bit faster. My sister already went to college. My relatives are business owners of nail shops. Granted it's a only a single anecdotal point. Beside, startups founders plunge automatically to "poverty" level just so they can start their own business and then rise to millionaire status or more if they's successful.

Startup founders do not go into poverty. To do a startup, you have to be middle-class, at least, from the start, because otherwise you have no hope of getting the funding or building up the savings. The most successful startups are an exception to the fact of American society being tiered, but these types of sociological statements always admit exceptions. If you want to see our tiered society in action, note how dif…

You don't understand how press coverage works. Being upper-class has nothing to do with it, unless you are princess diana. You just pay people to do your PR. They get the story into the press for you. The PR people themselves are NEVER from upper-class backgrounds... it's a pretty ghetto occupation to get into in the first place. In fact they are usually from such limited backgrounds in the first place that half of them will do the work for almost nothing. (but it's the ones who charge a lot who you really want to hire)

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#74

Post by robryan »

mattm wrote: post #64
robryan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.

I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees. I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof…

Or can afford to spend time learning without any financial pressure to actually turn that education into a job.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#75

Post by commandar »

aliston wrote: post #69
commandar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a lot more pressure on young people today to go amass piles of debt acquiring a college degree that they do not need . The stigma against trade and vocational educations in this country needs to die, otherwise we're going to just keep starting people off at a bigger disadvantage than they need be for very little good reason.

I agree -- and going one step further, WITHIN higher education, there seems to be somewhat of a stigma against training for real-world, hands-on, applications. I was pretty lucky to attend a college that encouraged students to work on projects that could become viable products... but from what I hear from friends, it was the exception.

Just to provide another data point from my own college experience, I actually ended up dropping out from my school because I got fed up with the fact that their program focused too much on application.

This is a school whose computer science curriculum circa 2004 still included COBOL because one of the major employers in my area is the banking industry. (Coincidentally, the CS building carries the name of one of the big names in that field here).

CS is a field where the theory end of things are often the most important thing you could take away long term, so having that kind of focus on tools in general (let alone ones that are hopeless obsolete for most purposes) is just insane.

Like everything else in life, it's all about balance. That said, I can't blame academia too much for erring on the side of theory.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#76

Post by anamax »

crux_ wrote: post #65
InclinedPlane wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management. And even then most "younger generatio…

> And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc. Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly. It rem…

> Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly.

They're trading luxuries for wealth. In other words, they're trading luxury consumption now for house payments later.

It's unclear why that choice is somehow unfortunate. More to the point - the ones who don't make it are in the same position as their parents.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#77

Post by capital_omega »

starkfist wrote: post #73
capital_omega wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startup founders do not go into poverty. To do a startup, you have to be middle-class, at least, from the start, because otherwise you have no hope of getting the funding or building up the savings. The most successful startups are an exception to the fact of American society being tiered, but these types of sociological statements always admit exceptions. If you want to see our tiered society in action, note how dif…

You don't understand how press coverage works. Being upper-class has nothing to do with it, unless you are princess diana. You just pay people to do your PR. They get the story into the press for you. The PR people themselves are NEVER from upper-class backgrounds... it's a pretty ghetto occupation to get into in the first place. In fact they are usually from such limited backgrounds in the first place that half of t…

You know nothing about the upper class. They don't need to hire PR firms (which is very expensive and unaffordable to a bootstrapped startup). They have their well-connected daddies and uncles make phone calls to get press coverage, etc.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#78

Post by aliston »

commandar wrote: post #75
aliston wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree -- and going one step further, WITHIN higher education, there seems to be somewhat of a stigma against training for real-world, hands-on, applications. I was pretty lucky to attend a college that encouraged students to work on projects that could become viable products... but from what I hear from friends, it was the exception.

Just to provide another data point from my own college experience, I actually ended up dropping out from my school because I got fed up with the fact that their program focused too much on application. This is a school whose computer science curriculum circa 2004 still included COBOL because one of the major employers in my area is the banking industry. (Coincidentally, the CS building carries the name of one of the…

I agree with what you're saying -- I thoroughly enjoyed the pure theory classes as part of the CS curriculum. I also agree that it is more important to teach concepts than specific technologies. That said, I think there are schools that fail to teach concepts as well... things like working as part of a team, using source control and designing a product modularly and writing code which would be considered "production quality." There's a tendency to put those things off because it is "just for a school project."

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#79

Post by crux_ »

anamax wrote: post #76
crux_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc. Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly. It rem…

> Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly. They're trading luxuries for wealth. In other words, they're trading luxury consumption now for house payments later. It's unclear why that choice is somehow unfortunate. More to the point - the ones who…

If I could trade an iPhone for a house, I would. You're blatantly misrepresenting the scale of these things in order to equate them.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#80

Post by InclinedPlane »

crux_ wrote: post #79
anamax wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly. They're trading luxuries for wealth. In other words, they're trading luxury consumption now for house payments later. It's unclear why that choice is somehow unfortunate. More to the point - the ones who…

If I could trade an iPhone for a house, I would. You're blatantly misrepresenting the scale of these things in order to equate them.

iPhone: $200 + $70/mo + apps & accessories, call it roughly $1k/year

internet/cable: $50-100/mo, call it roughly $1k/year too

gaming: $250 xbox 360 or ps3 every 4ish years, plus maybe a $60 game every 3 months, call it $300/year

entertainment: 10 DVDs a year at $15 each, a movie in the theater every month at $10 a pop, call it $300/year

eating out: $20 including tax and tip every week, call it $1k/year

car payment: a cheap car, only $150/mo, call it $1800/year.

These are just SWAGs, but they are relatively conservative SWAGs compared to the way most 20-somethings live today. Nevertheless, add it all up and you get $4-5k of money spent a year on relative luxuries. Save that up and in 4 years you have a down payment. Then roll it in with what you'd be paying for rent and you have a mortgage payment. Keep your credit clean and you can start paying on a 200k condo even in a big city in no time. Once you build up equity and once your career has advanced and you're making more income you can trade up to an even more expensive house.

This isn't rocket science, but it does take discipline and sacrifice.

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