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Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

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Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#91

Post by keganunderwood »

danmaz74 wrote: post #85

I would expect very different results if the question was "willing to defend your country in war if attacked". For most West Europeans, "fighting a war" brings to mind more going to Iraq or something similar.

I don't know how this is possible outside of science fiction but I wonder how popular military service would be on a historical timeline, all else being equal but the variables being we turn on or off a livable basic income and free of cost health care (like medicare) for all. Would people still be eager to join the US military?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#93

Post by majewsky »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #62
Normal_gaussian wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article Since World War Two, Europe has been relatively peaceful with major exceptions of the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s and various political suppressions during the Cold War. However, the 19th century was also a relatively peaceful time for Europe that ended with the start of World War I. So no, the vividity of the world wars is popular but unconvincing.

> "However, the 19th century was also a relatively peaceful time for Europe that ended with the start of World War I." Operative word: relatively. Still I see more than 18th century (although maybe severity of conflicts vary). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#19...

More data: https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace/

I would not want to draw a firm conclusion from this, though. It says that "in Europe the second half of the 20th century was extraordinarily peaceful", but that particular graph only counts wars between nations, not civil wars, guerilla wars and terrorism.

There's a lot of data in that page, though, so I can't really compress it into a HN comment.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#94

Post by taway_1212 »

ddnb wrote: post #3

Belgian here, as a resident of one of the bottom 3 countries I have to say I thought about this question myself a few times in the past. Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage. So to this question I would have to answer 'no' even though that doesn't mean I'd give up on my country.

> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage

When under foreign attack, you don't join the army - the army "joins" (conscripts) you. It's not voluntary.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#95

Post by usrusr »

taway_1212 wrote: post #21
othello wrote: post #14

The surprising fact here is that this can mostly be explained pretty well as the lessons of WW2 still being vivid in the memory of many countries...except that Russia suffered by far the most of any countries on the Western front, and still a majority there would fight a war for their own country. The persistent glorification of Russia's role in WW2 (although historically justified) might have something to do with it…

> The amputation of a quarter of Russia's territory Soviet Union is (was) not Russia, it was a multinational empire, similar to Roman or Mongol Empries. AFAIK, Russia itself did not loose much (any?) territory after 1989.

Unfortunately, many Russians don't seem to feel that way. They are not alone with that however: all former empires occasionally inspire the idea that their demise is an ongoing historical injustice that needs to be rectified. And in the echo chamber of a former-empire nation this train of thought rarely gets questioned.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#96

Post by aphextron »

chrisseaton wrote: post #87
aphextron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I just can't relate that to the people I know in the military at all. Most people are skilled professionals who are keen to do the best job they can in what are almost always complex situations. I imagine you're talking about Navy/Airforce? They tend to be normal intelligent folks for sure. Line units in the Army are a completely different world.

No I'm talking about my experience in line units in the British Army. I think you're working off ancient stereotypes. Modern land warfare is highly technical and extremely mentally and physically demanding. A modern professional army doesn't have any room for psychopaths, brainwashed people, or scared kids. Look at all the effort the military goes into in combating 'brainwashing' - mission command and encouraging peo…

>No I'm talking about my experience in line units in the British Army.

Ah, that makes sense. Let me tell you a thing about the US Army vs. our European counterparts. The Army is essentially a "last ditch" choice for impoverished kids with no other option in terms of jobs or education. The smart ones join the Air Force or Navy, and the dummies get filtered into the Army infantry. I know because I was one of them. I went through basic training with a convicted drug dealer and an attempted murderer. It's technically a "volunteer force", but once you sign up you are bound as a slave by law for the length of your entire enlistment. (Obviously this does not apply to officers)

Contrast this with European militaries which are 10x smaller, and thus only accept an elite core of people who are able to make the cut. The result is a completely different culture and force. I have no doubt that the British Army is full of complete professionals, as anyone who wasn't into it would quit or be kicked out or not even make it through selection in the first place. It simply doesn't work that way here.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#97

Post by taway_1212 »

JPLeRouzic wrote: post #89
othello wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of loss of civilians and military personnel though, it does not compare: the Soviet Union accounted for more than 40% of all WW2 deaths (both civilian and military) worldwide - including deaths on the Pacific front. The Soviet Union lost a total of 26.6 million people, or 13.8% of their 1939 population. Germany suffered tremendously as well of course, with 5.7 million dead, or 8.2% of their 1939 population […

That's true, I do not disput it. My point was about the countries as a whole, including civilians and by including the displaced people. And I did include them because you pointed at the amputation of territories, which is something that happened nearly 70 years after the WWII, so I felt I could talk about what happened in the ten years after the WWII. You know this point about displaced people strikes me because I a…

> Many years later I learned that the Allied discourse of "the good and the bad people" was an heavy (re) writing of history.

I agree that that was heavily the case on the Eastern front (with the Allies doing heavy cover-ups for USSR genocides so that they are not associated with a "bad guy"), but how did that happen on the Western front?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#98

Post by simo7 »

Lewton wrote: post #58
simo7 wrote: post #15

I think a strong pattern here is: the more cultural/social homogeneity the more willingness to fight a war for your country. See Italy, Spain, Belgium for instance: people from different area of those countries really feel belonging to different cultures. Contrari to the Nordic & Easter European ones. In Germany is more of a historical thing instead.

I don't think that's a strong pattern at all... Iceland? Denmark? Austria?

Strong doesn't mean it's the only explanation, probably different factors at play like in most things.

For instance for Germany (and maybe Austria?) major factor could be aversion to nationalism?

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#99

Post by [deleted] »

Lewton wrote: post #58
simo7 wrote: post #15

I think a strong pattern here is: the more cultural/social homogeneity the more willingness to fight a war for your country. See Italy, Spain, Belgium for instance: people from different area of those countries really feel belonging to different cultures. Contrari to the Nordic & Easter European ones. In Germany is more of a historical thing instead.

I don't think that's a strong pattern at all... Iceland? Denmark? Austria?

[deleted]
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