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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#141

Post by karthikb »

spyspy wrote: post #13
treyfitty wrote: post #4

I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…

The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.

Does NYC suffer from the "ghost train" phenomenon that plagues SF MUNI? The danger in waiting for a second train here is that there might not actually be one.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#142

Post by bo1024 »

qub1t wrote: post #100
zanny wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the misguided notion infrastructure should make a profit even come from? Everyone hates on Amtrak for not being a profitable company. When in history has infrastructure ever existed for the sake of the network operators profit? It is always for the sake of profiting those who use it - the infrastructure enables profits, but in the same way sticking profits into medicine cripples the efficiency of the syste…

Hong Kong has one of the best subway systems in the world and it generates a profit every year [1]. The USPS also generates profits as well [2]. I would argue that the profit motive incentivises efficiency in both of those examples. The best innovation often happens when working under constraints; often a drive for profit results in better service for everyone using the infrastructure. Of course this isn't the case 1…

There's a couple interesting issues at play. One is that a profit incentive can be at work without the goal being to break even. For example, perhaps the goal is to subsidize by only $XXX million/year and above/beyond this goal is considered "profitable" with appropriate incentives.

Another is the issue of correlation/causation. Well-run systems may tend to be efficient in their use of monetary resources (almost by definition), but it's not clear that setting a for-profit goal will be a cure-all intervention that causes a system to be well-run.

It's also a big leap from setting profit goals to full-on privatization, which I'm skeptical of for several reasons. Private companies are often only pushed to be "good enough", better than the competition. A public transit system that is just barely better than a cab (say for daily work commute) is no good at all. Private companies tend to have short-term incentives, for instance, the CEO may get a bonus based on the current year's profit, which will be destroyed by investment in infrastructure. Companies care about maximizing revenue rather than welfare. Etc.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#143

Post by stingrae »

rst wrote: post #117
stingrae wrote: post #110

Instead of cancelling trains, why not take the unused cars and make the running trains longer? I understand that the stations may not be able to handle the length. You could stagger entries so that the first half of the train loads, pulls forward a bit then the second half loads. If it is an issue with the strength of the train engines, could you use two train engines together? Especially if their intended routes are…

The trains on the 4/5/6 lines are already the full length of the platforms. (As on every other NYC subway line except for the G and a few of the shuttles.)

I was thinking that you could have trains that are longer than the length of the platform and have multiple steps to fill it.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#144

Post by mulmen »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #129
mulmen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What caused the spike in the 1940s? Wartime fuel rationing?

The spike was in 1946. Whenever this statistic is trotted out I always wonder how they made the trains run back then but MTA can't figure out how to do it today. Their handwaving about narrow doors slowing down passengers doesn't hold water.

That's interesting. By 1946 most soldiers would have been back in the states but automobile production would still have been ramping up. New car designs didn't really hit the market until after 1948. Maybe that contributed?

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#145

Post by Joeri »

brianwawok wrote: post #123
sliverstorm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case-study, large raid arrays. Last time I worked with one, it was exactly as you say, it was always degraded, and disks were constantly being replaced and arrays were constantly rebuilding.

So you fix the server case by a share nothing design. Put all data on 3 unrelated servers and query the fastest one. Not sure how you do this with subway tracks...

It's not the track that breaks down, it's what runs on it. I don't see a reason why the electricity or signaling infrastructure can't be redesigned to have redundancies built in. If the aim with modernization is to replace old signals by new signals and still have just a single signal, that is still inviting calamity.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#146

Post by sattoshi »

pcurve wrote: post #140
sattoshi wrote: post #59

I'm always impressed how terrible the subways are in America. In Moscow the metro is running really smoothly since the day of it's creation except for a single day. But that was because of Hitler.

just in NYC because of its age. I don't think it's so bad in other big cities. I don't care about the delays or capacity. I just wish NYC subway stations weren't so filthy. Yes, they've gotten better in the past 20 years, but every time I go to oversea, I'm reminded of how disgusting nyc subway is.

I honestly don't know how Moscow does it. I never saw a garbage can while at the same time never seeing any garbage laying around.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#147

Post by kalleboo »

stingrae wrote: post #110

Instead of cancelling trains, why not take the unused cars and make the running trains longer? I understand that the stations may not be able to handle the length. You could stagger entries so that the first half of the train loads, pulls forward a bit then the second half loads. If it is an issue with the strength of the train engines, could you use two train engines together? Especially if their intended routes are…

It could be a safety thing. In case of an emergency you want to be able to just roll into a station and evacuate the train as quickly as possible.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#148

Post by brianwawok »

couchand wrote: post #136
brianwawok wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you fix the server case by a share nothing design. Put all data on 3 unrelated servers and query the fastest one. Not sure how you do this with subway tracks...

We'll just do the same thing. Call the three systems BMT, IND, and IRT.

Touche!

That raises the costs a bit though, if you actually had full service via 3 lines. Public transpo is already insanely expensive per rider over the 10-20 year term.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#149

Post by IshKebab »

rst wrote: post #115
IshKebab wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just do work on it at night like they do on the tube?

New York's subway system runs 24 hours, and many residents rely on late-night/early morning service.

Which is great but it sounds like they need to compromise. Does New York have night busses?

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#150

Post by pcurve »

sattoshi wrote: post #146
pcurve wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just in NYC because of its age. I don't think it's so bad in other big cities. I don't care about the delays or capacity. I just wish NYC subway stations weren't so filthy. Yes, they've gotten better in the past 20 years, but every time I go to oversea, I'm reminded of how disgusting nyc subway is.

I honestly don't know how Moscow does it. I never saw a garbage can while at the same time never seeing any garbage laying around.

I think Japan does something similar.

http://jpninfo.com/54373

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