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American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

nytimes.com

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Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#61

Post by mattm »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #42

This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience. The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and d…

Your post reminds of this article I read now and again - http://www.conversiondoctor.com/conversion-blog/jobs-are-fil...

"Somewhere along the line the “American Dream” became having a “good job” that pays enough to be able to afford to “buy your own home”.

...

Historically the REAL “American Dream” used to be to owning your own business and becoming financially independent, while working for yourself, controlling your own destiny."

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#62

Post by InclinedPlane »

crux_ wrote: post #56
InclinedPlane wrote: post #42

This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience. The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and d…

> That dream is as alive as ever While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures. How on earth is that "as alive as ever"? (More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, du…

I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management.

And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc.

Every single person I've seen with drive, a good work-ethic, and sound financial sense has gotten ahead quickly in America, even if they never achieved any education beyond a high school diploma. That doesn't mean they all become millionaires, it just means they achieved financial stability and have significant control over their career path.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#63

Post by mattm »

PonyGumbo wrote: post #53
masterj wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this particular point so terrible? I'm 23 and am still on my parents' plan. The marginal cost of keeping me on their family plan is so much less than the cost of me getting my own line that it makes little sense for me to get my own, even though I could easily afford it.

In the context of the article, it reinforces the idea that he's spoiled - that while his parents continue to pay all of his bills, he turns down what most of us would consider a more than reasonable starting salary given this economy, his major, and his lack of experience. I would assume that in your case (since you could easily afford your own line), you're at least reimbursing your parents. This guy isn't.

Also mentioned is that his schooling was entirely paid for along with his rent.

I imagine that if his parents weren't still subsidizing his life, he wouldn't have had any thought about rejecting that job offer.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#64

Post by mattm »

robryan wrote: post #48
wfjackson3 wrote: post #11

Political science with a history minor. I feel bad for him, but what did he expect?

I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.

I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees.

I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#65

Post by crux_ »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #62
crux_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That dream is as alive as ever While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures. How on earth is that "as alive as ever"? (More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, du…

I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management. And even then most "younger generatio…

> And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc.

Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly.

It remains true even if this is due to (to paraphrase your words) a generational gumption shortage; regardless of cause, it looks like the American Dream is fading away.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#66

Post by capital_omega »

PonyGumbo wrote: post #38
capital_omega wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, though a lot of people won't admit to it, he's putting himself in danger by taking a mediocre job. He can very easily be typecast into that sort of role for a long time.

Is it a bigger danger to work in a mediocre job than to have a two year span of unemployment on his resume?

I don't know, but I think both are bad. If I were him, I'd probably bump the college degree by a couple years.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#67

Post by capital_omega »

francoisdevlin wrote: post #4

This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot that deserves what he gets. The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job. It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two poten…

A good barometer for whether a decent college grad should take a job is how elite business schools will perceive the work experience-- they generally require four years of real-world work experience in applicants. I'm not saying that everyone needs to go to Harvard Business School (I most likely won't) but that people should only take jobs that are putting them on the right track.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#68

Post by aliston »

nick-dap wrote: post #37
francoisdevlin wrote: post #4

This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot that deserves what he gets. The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job. It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two poten…

Spot on. If the NY Times want to write a story about an elusive American Dream they should write about us, the Dream Act students, who've been stuck in limbo with no job and no rights in sight because of our broken immigration system. It feels absolutely devastating to graduate from college, hang that degree on the wall, and realize that you can't even open a bank account.

Plenty of illegal immigrants have bank accounts. At least around here (Bay Area) it's kind of a joke -- there's literally a separate line for illegal immigrants to do all-cash transactions. Presumably they use a fake SSN to open the account.

Also, there is nothing preventing illegal immigrants from going to college. It's unfair, however, for tax payers to subsidize their education even further when an American citizen who happens to be from another state must pay full tuition.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#69

Post by aliston »

commandar wrote: post #20
mattm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is much more pressure on young people today (me being one of them) that you must be doing what your love or working on your passion. While good advice, some young people don't realise that this is good long-term advice. It's something you should work towards over a number of years. It is a very big mistake to close doors that may not offer the perfect path. I have some friends like this who seem to want…

There is also a lot more pressure on young people today to go amass piles of debt acquiring a college degree that they do not need . The stigma against trade and vocational educations in this country needs to die, otherwise we're going to just keep starting people off at a bigger disadvantage than they need be for very little good reason.

I agree -- and going one step further, WITHIN higher education, there seems to be somewhat of a stigma against training for real-world, hands-on, applications. I was pretty lucky to attend a college that encouraged students to work on projects that could become viable products... but from what I hear from friends, it was the exception.

Re: American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

#70

Post by starkfist »

rmundo wrote: post #2

I was surprised to read this article, as it seemed to me from reading HN and other tech-related news sources that there are more opportunities than ever. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong.

If you aren't a computer programmer, there are few jobs, even if you have a degree in something hard, like Physics. If you live somewhere like Arizona, there are few jobs even if you are a computer programmer.

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