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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#131

Post by krschultz »

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #65

Anyone know whether anyone's carefully considered simply adding new parallel systems, e.g. for signalling? I can completely sympathize with the difficulty of upgrading 24/7 critical infrastructure, especially given that mistakes can kill or injure people. I'd try to just deploy separate parallel systems instead. At a comically reduced scale, businesses migrating between ERPs (or similar line-of-business apps) often r…

I actually think this is the wrong approach. You don't get to reap any benefits until you start eliminating the old system, and with the parallel approach you defer that cleanup period until the transition is complete. It'd be far better if adding CBTC yielded the cost savings of eliminating the old system now as it rolled out. That requires more complex inter-op systems and more expensive upgrades to trains, but both of those things are not the constraint. The core constraint is the time you can shut down the subways for in order to do track & signal work in place. When you have a critical constraint, you should do lots of extra work in other places to maximize the productivity of the constrained operation.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#132

Post by krschultz »

Larrikin wrote: post #26
rrdharan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

What city in the US has a subway system worth bragging about? Philly's subway has 3% of the ridership of NYC's. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#133

Post by nickv »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #126
pavement wrote: post #21

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

I don't agree with your diagnosis for one simple reason: The Carnarsie line (AKA the L train). The L train is unique because it is the only line in the system that doesn't share track with any other line. It is well used but if it shut down for a day (or even a week) the effect on the system wouldn't be so bad. Yet attempts to upgrade the L line have still failed. How do you explain this?

That's not true. The L line is by far the most advanced line in the system because of the reasons you said. When I lived in Williamsburg, I remember coping with weekend shutdowns all the time for upgrades.

But the L now is (I believe) only one of 2 lines with modern signaling and CBTC (computer based train control), it was the first to have countdown clocks, and it runs with the least gap time (headway spacing) of any trains in the system.

That being said, it still is extremely overcrowded because of waterfront highrise development and the general shift to Brooklyn. This is why you're starting to see conversations about extending platforms (which for the underground stations is incredibly expensive).

And yes, I'm aware of the Sandy tunnel remediation work shutting it down for a year or so.

Still, the L is already upgraded (so is the 7 which also doesn't share much track). It's getting CBTC on the other lines with modern signaling that will be the hard jobs because of shared track.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#134

Post by razorunreal »

morley wrote: post #31
Nav_Panel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't always work. In my experience, if you're near peak crowding areas during rush hour, the next train is usually just as packed as the first. And then the next. And the next. So you've just watched 3 trains go by that you couldn't even fit on if you tried and you've been waiting about 5 minutes. God forbid they get delayed, even for 2 minutes more. I usually just try to cut my losses and shove in as soon as…

I lived on the L train for 7 years up until recently. In my estimation, shoving onto the train just wasn't worth it. It makes the ride much more miserable for people in the car, and it delays the line even more. The second point is important; the train situation isn't going to get better by people being selfish and gaining a few extra minutes at the expense of everyone else's. More often than not, the "second train"…

>The train situation isn't going to get better by people being selfish and gaining a few extra minutes at the expense of everyone else's.

Doesn't that pretty much sum up the New York experience though? If everyone could not block the intersection, stand back from the baggage claim, and wait their turn then life would be better for everyone.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#135

Post by rst »

nandemo wrote: post #124
rst wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York's subway system runs 24 hours, and many residents rely on late-night/early morning service.

Is that the official reason though? "The service cannot be stopped even for planned maintenance" doesn't sound like a reasonable constraint.

They have been doing shutdowns of particular lines for planned maintenance, but almost always with replacement service in place (either other nearby subway lines, or for more isolated lines, buses). And then there are major tunnel repairs, which can lead to shutdowns of over a year. (There's an upcoming shutdown on the L which a lot of people are dreading, as there is no good replacement service of anything like the same capacity.)

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#136

Post by couchand »

brianwawok wrote: post #123
sliverstorm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case-study, large raid arrays. Last time I worked with one, it was exactly as you say, it was always degraded, and disks were constantly being replaced and arrays were constantly rebuilding.

So you fix the server case by a share nothing design. Put all data on 3 unrelated servers and query the fastest one. Not sure how you do this with subway tracks...

We'll just do the same thing. Call the three systems BMT, IND, and IRT.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#137

Post by perseusprime11 »

The people in NY/NJ area have no choice but to endure the mess of NJ transit and MTA. Politicians lack vision and will to build a modern transportation system that accounts for growing number of riders through these systems. Somebody must have told try these folks to keep the "lights on" and forgot to mention that it also includes getting riders on time.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#138

Post by tacostakohashi »

bogomipz wrote: post #86
joatmon-snoo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make the current situation with chronically late trains worse there is no way to know when the next train is coming until you have paid for a fare and are standing down on the platform. Little good it does you then to find out that next train is not for 12 or 15 minutes. SO MUCH THIS. Fortunately, because the MTA has exposed the live schedule data, Google Maps lets you check this (sadly, it isn't 100% reliable: of…

>"Fortunately, because the MTA has exposed the live schedule data, Google Maps lets you check this (sadly, it isn't 100% reliable: oftentimes a train will claim to have arrived somewhere, or even be departing from a station, while it's still getting there)." Yes and the issue is that the MTA doesn't make the service disruption data available. See: https://medium.com/transit-app/how-were-bringing-real-time-c... Why wo…

For much the same reasons as not operating all the trains on your schedule, I guess - apathy, incompetence, mismanagement, under-resourcing, etc. It seems odd to expect a transit agency that isn't good at operating trains to be great at providing data.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#139

Post by tacostakohashi »

yourapostasy wrote: post #22
stuaxo wrote: post #7

Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.

> Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? Because currently, the residents would riot over the taxes/fees cost of redundancies required to enable faster maintenance and upgrade projects of a 24x7x365 operating system, where the pain of maintenance is constantly deferred until it turns into a looming, critical safety-liability issue. Back when the population density was lower and the pace…

This is the real reason for all of these problems. It's political. The fares don't come close to covering the operating and capital cost of the system. It's not user-pays, it requires constant government subsidies (as an implementation detail, the required government subsidies form a convenient way for the state and city to hold each other hostage, but that's another story).

Any talk of use pays is met with outrage about how low income people out in the boroughs couldn't afford it, so the whole system continues to operate as a horribly inefficient welfare system for poor people to get to underpaid jobs in the city, instead of a transit system. It would help a lot to double (triple?) the fares overnight, and give the poor people out in the boroughs a free metrocard - at least that way you're capturing the value provided to the rich people and tourists all the way through manhattan and brooklyn.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#140

Post by pcurve »

sattoshi wrote: post #59

I'm always impressed how terrible the subways are in America. In Moscow the metro is running really smoothly since the day of it's creation except for a single day. But that was because of Hitler.

just in NYC because of its age. I don't think it's so bad in other big cities.

I don't care about the delays or capacity. I just wish NYC subway stations weren't so filthy. Yes, they've gotten better in the past 20 years, but every time I go to oversea, I'm reminded of how disgusting nyc subway is.

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