Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#61

Post by mvdwoord » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

So you're going to ask management what they are going to do about someone who is stating well accepted scientific facts [1]?

I hope we never become colleagues.

[1]http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-...

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#62

Post by leroyofjenkins » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

muglug wrote: post #27

Oh, so stating that women can't handle stress is bad now? Political correctness gone, uh, sane. Edit: I had hoped the sarcasm was obvious

Oh, as you are on Hacker News, it means you probably don't have the genetic make up to understand an issue like this.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#63

Post by cthulha » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #12

This is starting to be scary. Instead of government companies are acting as thought police. I think a lot of people will watch what they are saying publicly from now on.

I don't think you've thought this through.

Maybe read the article and other informed commentary such as this ex-Googler: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#64

Post by AbrahamParangi » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #12

This is starting to be scary. Instead of government companies are acting as thought police. I think a lot of people will watch what they are saying publicly from now on.

I would argue that it's more akin to picking a fight in a bar— you're liable to get kicked out just for making trouble.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#65

Post by groupthinkqmark » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

> "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group." Wow, what a monster.

The problem is that Google already does do this, for the most part. So what does it mean to say that Google ought to treat people as individuals, if that is already the current state of affairs? The argument, as coded in the document, was that Google ought to cease making any efforts to correct disparities in representation.

As a moral or rational argument, this falls flat on its face. Suppose that there was science to show that cognitive differences between men and women or different races is 100% inborn (there isn't, not even close). Even then, there's still the problem of whether the magnitude of those differences justifies the magnitude of differences in representation. There is not nearly enough data to make a case here, and by presenting the case as made, the author of the doc was doing more than just observing the state of the science. He was making an unsubstantiated claim that his coworkers, or at a minimum the sex and/or races they belong to, are inherently deficient at performing the work.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#66

Post by iainmerrick » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

majos wrote: post #19

Afforess wrote: post #4

I read the memo and didn't find it particularly persuasive; but this dismissal does further its core point. It's a bit tone deaf of Google to fire an employee concerned about groupthink.

On a related note, what does "internal memo" mean here? Did he forward this to a few coworkers who spread it or cc the whole company or what?

Posted on Google's private Google+ instance (which is very active). Pretty much like sharing it on an internal mailing list, or on Slack.

Seems like it must have gotten a few reshares to go viral enough for somebody to feel the need to leak it. I don't think we really know how widely it was read before it leaked though -- it might have been a big raging controversy inside Google, or it might not.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#67

Post by bronz » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

you didnt read his memo. please cite the passage where he says that he doesnt believe females should be there. point to where he says this, whether he did so directly or as an insinuation, and explain exactly how it means that he wants females out of google, please.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#68

Post by leroyofjenkins » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:51 AM UTC

LiteskinKanye wrote: post #54

I guess Google is no longer the "cool" progressive company it once was. Sad how all big corporations are steered into the same actions. I'm trying to figure out where the next best place to work is going to be.

For you, probably chief of staff for Travis K, or Trump.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#69

Post by refulgentis » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:51 AM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #48

wyclif wrote: post #31

Fun fact: the author of the memo earned a PhD in Biology from Harvard. Google can fire him and get away with it, but it's going to be tough, very tough, for him to be falsely characterized as someone who is misinformed or unscientific. And the court of public opinion may well be more important in this controversy than any court of law.

No, it will be very easy. Don't mention his training in any articles, and 95%+ of the readership will not look into his qualifications or training.

It absolutely does not follow that everyone who had a PhD at Harvard in Biology gets to say whatever they want about humans, especially in a way that's derogatory of his coworkers.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#70

Post by okabat » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:51 AM UTC

Slate star codex on the science behind gender representation: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...

Makes the very clever comparison to medicine and other fields that used to be 100% male.

"Nobody has any real policy disagreements. Everyone can just agree that men and women are equal, that they both have the same rights, that nobody should face harassment or discrimination. We can relax the Permanent State Of Emergency around too few women in tech, and admit that women have the right to go into whatever field they want, and that if they want to go off and be 80% of veterinarians and 74% of forensic scientists, those careers seem good too. We can appreciate the contributions of existing women in tech, make sure the door is open for any new ones who want to join, and start treating each other as human beings again."