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On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

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341–350 of 443 posts

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#341
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

No matter how you read the original manifesto or the responses to it, I think there's a level of separation one must achieve before they pass judgement on it. If you let yourself live in the binary black-and-white world that the manifesto author created, where views are either left _or_ right, you're bound to get fired up. This is a natural reaction to the fact that party identification and attacking identity tend to trigger much more primal responses than if party was removed. In my humble opinion, Google is a very good example of a company with a mixed culture. They're a hugely conservative company in how they manage their finances, pay taxes, hire employees, and operate their company to the normal world. At the same time, they attempt to create "Googley" spaces where thinking and diversity are promoted. Are these necessarily right wing and left wing ideologies? Maybe. But it's definitely a mix -- you don't see Google spending 100% of its money on social programs, nor do you see it spending 0% of its money on social programs.

Does the manifesto author have a reason to write? Yes. He's clearly scared, and clearly feels attacked, perhaps on a regular basis, in the workplace. Like many an engineer before him, he attempted to identify the problem and presented several solutions that may or may not work.

Now, were the solutions he presented the correct ones? I personally am inclined to say no. Just as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The article was eloquent and well pointed at specific "problem areas" the author presumed to be at fault. The author did not provide anything to corroborate his hypothesis that things like removal of empathy would do any good to help the situation at Google. Similarly, the author's attack on outreach programs aimed at minorities did not make any effort to show how these programs were exclusively harming non-minority participants.

Now, obviously, there are questions on the other side of the plane too -- specifically on whether or not diversity initiatives help or whether or not empathy helps either. I haven't done this research -- but the author hasn't done his research, so I feel this is fair. I'm just pointing out that Google is a for-profit company. They tend to make decisions that are economically viable, and they may or may not have done research on these types of things in the past -- though I would assume they have. Again, this is a company infamous for A/B testing shades of blue for engagement. It would be silly if they were burning their cash pile on programs known to be detrimental or non-working.

To summarize: if you write a manifesto, I expect you to pull some figures and prove some points before you start pulling the political party card and getting everyone riled up about your thoughts and opinions. If you read a manifesto, don't conflate perceptions as fact without examining and thinking about them closely for a long period of time. It will ONLY lead to pointless arguing and senseless fighting, while the real issue gets ignored.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#342
post #316
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Testosterone has effects on competition, so there could still be bias there Oh. And that would be a biological, innate difference in behaviour between men and women, wouldn't it? And even if women are as good as men at maths or computer programming- which wouldn't surprise me much- can't they be just less interested in it, just in the same way they're less interested (as you seem to imply) in competition? And could…

But are they less interested just because? Or less interested because of things like Uber?

Because, do you think sitting eight hours a day behind a desk trying to find a way to instruct a machine to do something you already know how to do, is a particularly appealing job? Can you imagine the amount of fulfilling human interactions a nurse has every day in the hours you spend looking at that damn screen? I mean, maybe they don't do it just because they can actually do something better.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#343

One of my first exposures to this "manifesto" was on Twitter with someone starting a thread with "Google has a Nazi problem." The majority of the other responses I read either attacked the author, dismissed the entire text in whole, and/or refused to actually argue the paper's points because they saw them as so ridiculous or "obviously" wrong. I read the paper. I don't see at all how it relates to fascism, Trumpism,…

> I am against discrimination, and that includes positive discrimination. I don't think it works that way. This version is problematically simplistic: I have +10 and you have -2; now add Affirmative Action and I've got +8 and you've got +2. I'm still not receiving negative discrimination. But, you're also missing the follow-on effects; specifically: 1) People who are not actually deserving on their own merits, but we…

That's not how affirmative action works. Using your example, for most of the population, there is no detraction from their score. It only comes into effect if you have +1 and they have 0 or +1, and it becomes you with +1 and them with +2.

If you had +10 and they had 0, you would stay at +10 and they would go to +2, taking the place of someone else that only had +1 and leaving you alone. For you in this case it isn't a 0-sum because you never lose.

For the people on the edge, it is 0-sum because they are on the edge of not getting the position. Any advantage given to someone else removes them from contention.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the sixties you would type punch cards and make sure you typed correctly so that you don't mess the batch run. EDIT: it was more of a secretarial type of job. And women would socialize with other women on the job. The point is that aside from the title, the IT industry then is in no way what we understand by IT industry now.

Women clearly aren't cut out for the brave new world of statically typed languages.

Living in this fantasy where biology does not matter is just a way for SJWs of denying reality.

This blatant attempt at distorting reality to fit one's self is due to cause more trauma than to alleviate it.

Time will tell. It is just a sign of immaturity.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every dirty rhetorical trick to twist their words is fair game, and attempts from decent people to even point out that the other side is being misrepresented is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I avoid a lot of liberal "popular" sites because of this BS. It's not right. It's become a moral situation for many people. in fairness, some of the social politics are literal life and death for certain subcommunities,…

Eh, I pretty strongly disagree. My complaint is against people who claim the mantle of being obviously, factually correct while being so incredibly dismissive of attempts to figure out what's true vs what's convenient. Judging facts on how they contribute to your ideology is a way of approaching the world that's precisely ass-backwards. This is entirely independent of how morally-weighted the question is: in fact, th…

My point was that I have a big sympathy for people who do see it as a moral issue, because of the very real consequences.

I do understand what you're saying. I think I disagree with some what you're saying, but I think I significantly agree with you in spirit. Anyway. I have to head out and stop reading internet forums. :)

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#346
> But this groupthink terrifies me when it’s used to bully people for exercising their right to free speech. How will we know what people are truly thinking if we rush to silence them?

I think "right to free speech" is a weak and kind of scary argument to be making here. Inside a corporation, you don't have the same right to free speech you would have on the outside. HR can fire employees for things that wouldn't get you arrested for saying in public.

To quote the alt-text for https://xkcd.com/1357/

> I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

I think a better argument would be that the "manifesto" wasn't actually saying anything particularly controversial, it was just a statement of opinion that many reasonable people would agree with. Perhaps it contains some assumptions that aren't backed up by recent research, but unknowingly saying something that's not true shouldn't ordinarily be a fireable offense.

I would rather work at an employer where employees feel free to discuss hard problems that are relevant to the work environment for which there aren't any easy answers than one where minority opinions (or even majority opinions that contradict the leadership) are silenced. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to work at an employer where people felt free to say deliberately offensive things without repercussion.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#347
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this to be well written: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... Notably: 1) The document makes a fundamentally flawed argument - that is, he's based his whole argument on a flawed premise that women just aren't interested in being engineers (and it's clearly wrong, because gender ratios were nearly identical until about the mid 80s; it's not a biological difference, it's a social and c…

1. I could not find the source stating that gender ratios were identical before the 80's in engineering. I do know that there used be a more even ratio of male/female programmers but I think the field has changed enough from those times that I would be wary of anyone claiming to make an apples to apples comparison. 2.His points about what makes a good engineering manager skips over the fact that to get good at engine…

>I think the part about alienating women comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the manifesto and probability in general

And yet empirically, women have been alienated.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds true, but is actually incorrect. Whenever women speak out on social media, they get at the very least abuse, but also often rape threats and death threats against them. That is retaliation, plain and simple. That's just the loud stuff. There's also the quiet "oh she's too much of a firebrand" or "oh she won't fit into the small team because she might call people out for their casual sexism" that happens a…

> This sounds true, but is actually incorrect. Whenever women speak out on social media, they get at the very least abuse, but also often rape threats and death threats against them. That is retaliation, plain and simple. Rape threats and death threats are illegal. They should be reported, investigated and prosecuted. (As an aside, I've seen many instances where women claim to have received rape or death threats, wit…

You original post suggests that, because there is not retaliation against people speaking in favor of diversity efforts, we should thus create one to balance it out.

I have shown you that there is retaliation against people who speak out about diversity efforts. Thus you should retract your suggestion that we form a mob, because it is no longer necessary (among other reasons).

When it comes to professionally, personally, or economically harmed, if you don't believe that this happens to women in tech on a regular basis, then you clearly have NOT been reading Hacker News, or ANY of the accounts from your fellow colleagues like Susan Fowler!

I don't like rage mob tactics either, but you want to create a reactionary rage mob to fight the rage mob of the left created to fight the rage mob of the right. No more rage mobs, please.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#349
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the paper is well-read, and the people criticizing his science understand neither the underlying science, nor what it implies for the problems they profess to care about.

He doesn't cite any science so it is hard to appreciate that any of it is based on quality research. Seems like a lot of stereotypes mixed in with hedging. For example: suggesting that women are too emotional to "reason about the facts" as well as men do.

He didn't say that - he said "Being emotionally unengaged helps us better reason about the facts".

That might be wrong. I think using emotions as a guide reason can work, sometimes very well. It doesn't link anything to women - women can be disengaged and men can be emotional in the ordinary course of their day.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#350

One of my first exposures to this "manifesto" was on Twitter with someone starting a thread with "Google has a Nazi problem." The majority of the other responses I read either attacked the author, dismissed the entire text in whole, and/or refused to actually argue the paper's points because they saw them as so ridiculous or "obviously" wrong. I read the paper. I don't see at all how it relates to fascism, Trumpism,…

calling someone a Nazi is a strong accusation, but the guy did repeat some extreme-right talking points. one of the footnotes basically repeats the argument that "cultural Marxism" has taken over the left. This is a common right-wing talking point often connected to an antisemitic conspiracy theory involving the Frankfurt School. I doubt the guy is an actual Nazi, but just like you I'm not specialized enough to evalu…

That sounds like "Hitler made trains run on time, therefore anyone who thinks trains should run on time agrees with Hitler". While it is very legitimate to disagree with the author of the manifesto, linking him to some antisemitic conspiracy theory on the base that they both don't like Marxists is insane. A lot of people don't like Marxists (in fact, many Marxists don't like other Marxists, and had murdered fellow Marxists by millions), that doesn't make them all the same.
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