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On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

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Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#201

Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed than tech. Moreover, the average income of a nurse in Silicon Valley is $100k. To my knowledge, there is no outcry or movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. [0] https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa...

That's kinda whataboutism though. Yes there is a disparity in nursing, teaching, garbage collection, whatever. How is that relevant to tech?

The issue in question is that women (and minorities) are underrepresented and sometimes experience discrimination/unfair treatment in the IT industry. Why is that, and what are some solutions to that? Do we need solutions to that?

If the nursing profession addressed gender disparity in some way that can be applied to tech, then that is worthy of inclusion in this discussion. If not, it's not particularly relevant.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#202
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the bar lowered to recruit female or minority candidates? That's not a rhetorical question and I don't presume to have an answer to it. It was, however, the subject of the original memo, which suggests that some policies or proposed policies exist that lower standards for diversity candidates in the author's opinion. One example is, in the author's words: "Setting org level OKRs for increased representation." If…

I think you are suffering from the same delusion that many have regarding this so-called bar. At the level of recruiting done by the big-five you end up with a pool of candidates who all make it over "the bar." You only need a couple, so now you get to decide on additional criteria like how well they seem to work in teams, how well they can communicate with their peers, how easily they can adapt to new situations and…

You're wrong.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#203

Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed than tech. Moreover, the average income of a nurse in Silicon Valley is $100k. To my knowledge, there is no outcry or movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. [0] https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa...

There, in fact, is a movement to bring more men into nursing.

http://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2011/09/mal...

Quotes from the article: "Through this initiative, called 20 x 20: Choose Nursing, it awards scholarships to undergraduate and graduate male nursing students; recognizes excellent nursing schools for men; and has created a poster advertising campaign designed to appeal to men."

“One day, men might actually make up 50 percent of the nursing workforce, in a similar way that women have been able to enroll and work in law, engineering and medicine,” Lecher says. “That would be true gender inclusion and balance.”

And, there are some really good reasons to have more men in nursing -- as nurses take over more and more primary care duties from physicians, it's a really good idea to have gender diversity in providers, especially for sensitive issues like prostate care and STD's.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#204
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the one place where I actually do agree with the author of the essay: computer programming is now seen as a high-status field, so it's worth it for men who seek high-status careers to displace women and construct rationalizations. It wasn't high-status in the 1960s.

Operating a computer in the 1960s was arguably more high-status. Computers occupied entire rooms and were operated mainly by military, government, and academic institutions.

https://www.slideshare.net/lenbass/programming-in-the-1960s

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#205
post #74

This is called growing up. We dont need to know how everyone thinks. We dont want to know either. We tailor our words to our audience. We avoid saying or typing dumb things. We only say what we really feel to our confidante. These outwardly stupid writings are simply that: bad childish judgement.

I tend to refer to Chistopher Hitchens on this topic. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM

That's nice but how does what Hitchens says apply here?

The Manifesto writer apparently still works at Google. No one is silencing him. A whole shit ton of people are disagreeing with what he says. The remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence. No one is enforcing his silence, though in CA, Google as a corporation could dispense with his employment at will.

Are you saying that we shouldn't disagree with him, that we should be silent, and that you'll cite Hitchens for that? Really?

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#207
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have an illustrative example: in Germany in those regions that have the least foreigners, there are the most Neo Nazis and people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. As a counter-example: In the US, people living in the South are generally the most racist, despite Southern states having the most ethnic diversity. https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b7d145c14255746125e39...

How much social interaction is there between people of different ethnicities? How often is a white person neighbour of a black person? Can you compare this to, say, New York City?

Tons. When cities are 30+% black, as most are in the South, lots of daily interaction with blacks is par for the course.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#208

Why are people so outraged at this guy? I read what he wrote and it honestly sounds like he's trying to be helpful. It's at least polite. The knee-jerk "SEXIST!" reactions to him come off extremely self-righteous and immature. There are a hundred other male-dominated careers and I never, ever hear women complain about not being equally represented in them. Why? Because they're not attractive careers.

Right, he's just asking questions, what's so harmful about that?

He's "asking" whether or not an entire category of people deserve to be in his field. Which means he is actually questioning whether an entire gender deserves to be allowed to be engineers. That is on its face extremely offensive and damaging. Imagine showing up to work today in silicon valley as a female engineer. Imagine having spent years, decades, busting your ass to get a job in a field you've been passionate about since you were a child and here some asshat out of left field can dangle your entire career out over a precipice in front of the world like some circus act.

That's the real problem here, the problem of entrenched misogyny and tribalism in the industry so deep that it means everyone who isn't a white skinned techbro has to constantly validate and re-validate (and re-re-validate) their own existence on an ongoing basis. White dudes have the luxury to call into question the validity of the careers of hundreds of thousands of other people with just a few words, but they never seem to have to prove their own worth. That's the problem here.

The industry, the world, is on an un-level playing field, with those who are at a disadvantage at the edge of a cliff facing a steep slope to get further from the cliff. Those higher up sometimes ask "but do they really deserve to be here? what if we just push them off, look how close they are to the edge, it would be so easy". This is not ok.

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#209

Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed than tech. Moreover, the average income of a nurse in Silicon Valley is $100k. To my knowledge, there is no outcry or movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. [0] https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa...

Slightly more up-to-date data: http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/...

There is, indeed, a movement to bring more men into the nursing profession.

"Although all of the benefits of becoming a nurse would plausibly outshine any kind of challenges nurses face...there are still reasons that prevent men from eagerly pursuing a career in nursing. Even today, despite the growth in healthcare, nursing is still perceived as a field that is less prestigious, and so requires less training and education. One male student, named Gillis, noted that a recent graduate of Stanford, who was interested in a nursing program, was told, “Stanford grads don’t become nurses.” There were also students, ones who excelled in school, but were also told something along the lines of, “You’re too smart to become a nurse.” Also, there’s that old sense that men still feel as if nursing is a female profession, and so men choose to pursue a field that’ll be viewed as more appropriate for men.

"Of the nearly five hundred [male nurses] who participated [in a survey] 73 percent claimed that negative stereotypes of men working as nurses realistically contributed to the shortage, 59 percent noted that what might deter men was that nursing has always, especially in previous generations, been seen as a female profession, and the rest, 42 percent felt that men lacked male models and mentors within the field."

http://everynurse.org/men-entering-predominantly-female-care...

https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2017/mar/01/w...

Even more, men have some advantages in the nursing profession.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nur...

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-...

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/08/women-i...

Re: On managing outrage in Silicon Valley

#210

Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed than tech. Moreover, the average income of a nurse in Silicon Valley is $100k. To my knowledge, there is no outcry or movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. [0] https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa...

And nurses get paid well too. You can also point to well-paying construction jobs and the like. I think (and I'm sure I'll get obliterated for saying this) but it's easier to support getting women into "tech" because they are high paying, physically easy jobs and they are super cool. Nobody thinks being a dock worker or a plumber is a cool job, even though they are very accessible with minimum post-secondary education (also notice more women go to college than men?).
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