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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#31

Post by morley »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #24
spyspy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.

This doesn't always work. In my experience, if you're near peak crowding areas during rush hour, the next train is usually just as packed as the first. And then the next. And the next. So you've just watched 3 trains go by that you couldn't even fit on if you tried and you've been waiting about 5 minutes. God forbid they get delayed, even for 2 minutes more. I usually just try to cut my losses and shove in as soon as…

I lived on the L train for 7 years up until recently.

In my estimation, shoving onto the train just wasn't worth it. It makes the ride much more miserable for people in the car, and it delays the line even more. The second point is important; the train situation isn't going to get better by people being selfish and gaining a few extra minutes at the expense of everyone else's.

More often than not, the "second train" strategy works wonders. I found that when it doesn't, I'd have to wait for multiple trains anyway. Maybe once in 7 years did I skip a train with room and get punished for it.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#32

Post by Joeri »

pavement wrote: post #21

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Any sufficiently complex system will always run in degraded mode, because the individual mtbf rates for distinct elements will compound. Even a stop-the-world overhaul can't fix that, it will reduce the failure rate but it won't get rid of it. The trick to running such a system is to assume it is broken and still figure out ways of providing continuous service.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#33

Post by darpa_escapee »

Larrikin wrote: post #26
rrdharan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

Part of what makes the subway system worth bragging about is that it runs at night.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#34

Post by eric_h »

morley wrote: post #31
Nav_Panel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't always work. In my experience, if you're near peak crowding areas during rush hour, the next train is usually just as packed as the first. And then the next. And the next. So you've just watched 3 trains go by that you couldn't even fit on if you tried and you've been waiting about 5 minutes. God forbid they get delayed, even for 2 minutes more. I usually just try to cut my losses and shove in as soon as…

I lived on the L train for 7 years up until recently. In my estimation, shoving onto the train just wasn't worth it. It makes the ride much more miserable for people in the car, and it delays the line even more. The second point is important; the train situation isn't going to get better by people being selfish and gaining a few extra minutes at the expense of everyone else's. More often than not, the "second train"…

> In my estimation, shoving onto the train just wasn't worth it.

In my ~17 years of living in NYC, I've never found it to be worth it trying to squeeze myself onto a train. The ride itself is awful and literally you're at most saving a few minutes at the expense of a terrible, terrible experience in the car. The next train almost always has fewer people on the car, and if that's not the case, the one after that most certainly does.

[Edit: I've also been fortunate enough during my time here that I could always afford to be a few minutes later to my destination, that is not always the case amongst those who take the subway]

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#35

Post by InitialLastName »

spyspy wrote: post #13
treyfitty wrote: post #4

I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…

The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.

This phenomenon is almost comical with the NJTransit Northeast Corridor lines into NYC. They frequently cluster two inbound Northeast Corridor trains (all the way from Trenton) with the express coming 3-4 minutes after the local (having left Trenton 20 minutes later). Even on weekends, the local is frequently standing room only (usually totally packed) whereas the express will have plenty of free seats.

At Secaucus Junction (the last stop in NJ before NYC Penn), there will usually be a ton of people waiting for the train. Invariably, they cram onto the first train to come (which is already full) despite the big flashing notices on the timing screen that there's another train to NYC two minutes behind.

I've seen adults throw straight-up temper tantrums at being unable to get onto that train when there's an empty train following right behind.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#36

Post by jerrylives »

Waterluvian wrote: post #25
bradleyjg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why it is a real human tragedy that the MTA is literally the worst transit system in the world when it comes to new construction. Millions of lives could made better if they could do capital projects in the time and costs that cities elsewhere are able to do them in.

In a perfect world there are four branches of government: Legislative, Judicial, Executive, Cranky Mass Transit Dictator

Well, we had Robert Moses and look how that turned out

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#37

Post by thmsths »

reaperducer wrote: post #30
rrdharan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

> NYC subway system is the only train system that actually operates 24-7 Chicago's subway is 24/7, too.

This is only true for the red and blue lines though. And since they only have one track for each direction they must interrupt the service to do maintenance.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#38

Post by dionidium »

magic_beans wrote: post #15
spyspy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.

That was my biggest lesson of the L or the 4/5/6. If you wait , the next train will be much, MUCH less crowded. Another trick is that if I'm at Union Square trying to get into Brooklyn on the L and the station is packed, it ends up being faster and more comfortable to take the L backwards to 8th ave, and then grab a seat on the Brooklyn bound L at the 8th ave terminus.

I use this technique when I need to catch a Queens-bound 7 train in Midtown. It's much better to take a walk over to Hudson Yards and board there.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#39

Post by killa_kyle »

reaperducer wrote: post #30
rrdharan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

> NYC subway system is the only train system that actually operates 24-7 Chicago's subway is 24/7, too.

Only the Blue and Red Lines are 24 hours IIRC

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#40

Post by oconnor663 »

jandrese wrote: post #2

So the transit authority decided that it was more important to have trains evenly spaced out (to minimize the worst case wait times), but the tradeoff was less total capacity and thus more crowded trains. I'm really not sure which is the better case. Trains always arrive in a short time, but can be full. Or you may have to wait longer for a train, and then a little longer still for the train right behind that train t…

It might also be that "longer worst case wait times" risk turning into a different failure mode entirely. Like maybe if the rush hour train is 5 minutes late it's just uncomfortably packed, but if it's 10 minutes late it gets so packed that letting people off at each station now takes 3x longer than it should, the wait time spikes further, and every other train in the system gets stuck behind that one.
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