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IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

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Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#151
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but be careful here though. It's possible for both the parent post and the article to be on the right track. Wealth enables action and technology obviously enables and creates wealth. It's also difficult to assign this to "Clintonian types" when in general the centrist side of the Democrats has been such an ardent supporter of the growth of the tech industry. They're eager to own the eneconic growth.

From what I've seen, they have been more than capable to support the industry and take credit for it's successes and simultaneously demonize tech workers as unempathetic racists, sexists, and gentrifiers. A specific examples being Alexandra Pelosi's documentary San Francisco 2.0. Bill Maher has also made similar anti "tech bro" statements from time to time. While he's not the perfect centrist, he was pretty much behi…

> they have been more than capable to support the industry and take credit for it's successes

Well let's face it, we're all getting a huge break from the government right now in a ton of different ways, so they do get some credit for making the laws incredibly lax around here.

Even Trump's government gets credit until it screws up this sweet deal we're on. And if you wanna see how sweet it really gets, go into fintech. All your opponents with lots of cash on hand are basically operating blindfolded with both hands tied behind their back.

Regulators literally have no idea what to make of us in that space. They largely leave us alone so long as you have even semi-competent legal advice. If you have good legal advice? Well you end up recreating financial institutions in all but name and without any regulation (e.g., Digit).

> simultaneously demonize tech workers as unempathetic racists, sexists, and gentrifiers

I wanna get to the rest of your post, but I just can't leave this alone. I'm sorry to shift the focus here, but we really don't need any external help on this though, do we?

The racist part of the story has legs because folks like the "unnamed" google engineer writing screeds about how no, actually, it's the rich conservatives in the majority who are unsafe. Because tech conferences argue they're a safe space for men who's primary ideological focus for their publications is proving black people thrive under slavery. Because a constant dribble of stories like Kixeye exist to support population statistics that are... statistically unlikely by pure chance..

The sexist part of the story? Gosh maybe if our industry stopped doing so many things that enable abuse of women, the narrative might not be that we enable the abuse of women. Similarly, if we paid women more or less equally within rank and gave them equal opportunity in the workforce... This problem might exist to a much lesser degree. Uber's ripping itself apart not because some women choose to speak out; it's because the public is discovering obviously unethical and probably illegal behavior.

Tech gets special attention, I grant. It's outsized, growing fast, and is consuming and reformatting other INDUSTRIES as its primary fuel source rather than more traditional business models.

> I would definitely consider him to be part of the Democratic establishment.

This is an excellent example of a perception gap. See, I've always seen him as fringe because of his views on transgenderism, his decision that racial slurs are free speech he should exercise, etc.

Unlike, say, Clinton or Obama who've obviously changed their opinions on this subject (or decided to portray an image largely indistinguishable from someone having changed their image) Maher has continue to expand upon it. Maybe he was center-left when he started, but it's difficult to say he's on the left side of the cultural equation these days.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#152

// Automation replaces men. This of course is nothing new. What is new is that now, unlike most earlier periods, the displaced men have nowhere to go. The farmers displaced by mechanization of the farms in the 20's could go to the cities and man the assembly lines. As for the work animals like the mule, they could just stop growing them. But automation displaces people, and you don't just stop growing people even whe…

Another argument for basic income? The displacement of any worker who drives for a living as at our doorstep.

> Another argument for basic income?

Another argument why some sections of the population should not have kids.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#153
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do software engineers predominantly lean left? I think the left / right debate is quite outdated, with both sides having equally good (but also bad) ideas about certain subjects. Why can't you lean left on healthcare and LGBT rights, yet more right on certain economic policies and tax issues?

I think both are true. Software engineers tend to vote Democrat, but they're also much more likely to be libertarians than the average person. Or even "alt-right" to be honest. Outside of a general leftward bias, I think we seem to be more prone to exploring ideological extremes.

Alt-right is white nationalism. So you've gone from libertarian which is not really left or right (depends on issue but revolves mainly around a weak central government except as it relates to protecting civil liberties and national defense), completely skipped moderate conservatives, conservatives, and right wing, and even hard right, and landed on a blatantly racist movement that has no f'n idea how the economy even works which is why they keep thinking tax cuts for people who make over $10 million a year creates jobs, but bank deregulation is good, but the banks f'd them over in 20008, but for sure stop importing brown people, legal and illegal, and especially if they're Muslim.

Most alt-right are just deeply ignorant people. But some are malevolent. The base ideology requires people believe vicious things about "the other" who happen to be merely different. They refer to liberals as libtards, and prefer strong leaders like Putin, Kim, Duerte, Erdogan, and even weaker autocrats, as compared to "vile libtards" like say Clinton (who is something like a cross between Woodrow Wilson and Margaret Thatcher). No doubt they'd prefer Putin as president of the United States than a Clinton.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#154
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mass automation doesn't remove the underclass; it just makes it a non-working underclass instead of a working underclass. That is not an improvement. How is that not an improvement? So we have a certain segment of the population that doesn't produce, when we have such a small portion of the population producing such wealth, does it really matter? This whole argument is based on the predication that everyone must "e…

You are basically limiting "produce" to mean produce basic subsistence items like food, clothing, and shelter. Yes, of course the fraction of people that need to work to produce those things will decrease with automation--that's been happening for most of human history, and has been happening a lot faster since the Industrial Revolution. In the US in the late 19th century, IIRC, something like 19 out of 20 people wor…

> The other thing that can happen with the surplus capacity available is that it gets wasted. People who find they don't need to work to make a living, do nothing that improves the lives of anyone, including their own. The best case of this is that they sit all day watching soap operas, or something like that. The worst case is that they start doing things that worsen the lives of everyone, like committing crimes.

Your prejudices are not facts.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#155
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial institutions are all now IT companies. It's an essential core competency. Money is information.

A core competency doesn't mean they are IT companies. Knowing how to use a computer is akin to literacy. That does not mean that being so efficient in Excel will make you Martin Shkreli ( https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/4df5il/martin_shkre... ) Finance is much more than knowing how to use or even excel at any software or programming. Computer is an enabler in this case IMHO.

They're IT companies that just don't sell any of their tech. But then Facebook don't sell their tech either. Just as a computer is an enabler at Facebook to manage personal contacts and communications, at Google to manage their indexing and advertising business, at Amazon to manage their ordering and inventory systems. Banks nowadays are just as much IT companies as any of these. A typical bank employs thousands of developers. They even develop their own development and service deployment environments, their own IDEs, even their own custom languages, middleware, development frameworks and libraries and database technologies.

Some have even rolled their own internal cloud infrastructure services like mini-Azures or a mini-AWS and systems like Hadoop but using entirely custom tech, not just an instance of an open source solution. There is almost nothing going on in the big tech giants in terms of core technology development that some banks somewhere aren't also doing.

You might split hairs or come up with some technical definition to avoid classifying them in this way, but if you do you will be deluding yourself. The Banks have found that in many areas they cannot rely on external technology companies to meet their needs, so they have to meet them using internal resources and roll a lot of their own tech.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#156
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are basically limiting "produce" to mean produce basic subsistence items like food, clothing, and shelter. Yes, of course the fraction of people that need to work to produce those things will decrease with automation--that's been happening for most of human history, and has been happening a lot faster since the Industrial Revolution. In the US in the late 19th century, IIRC, something like 19 out of 20 people wor…

> You are basically limiting "produce" to mean produce basic subsistence items like food, clothing, and shelter. I would also include the arts, entertainment, service work, craftsmanship, etc. But going on... > Yes, of course the fraction of people that need to work to produce those things will decrease with automation--that's been happening for most of human history, and has been happening a lot faster since the Ind…

> I would also include the arts, entertainment, service work, craftsmanship, etc.

But that destroys your argument, because these things are not automated and won't be any time soon. Automation certainly does not remove the need for humans to create works of art and entertainment, to perform services, to provide craftsmanship, etc. So if all those things are included in "produce", then there are lots of ways for humans to produce that won't be displaced by automation any time soon.

> Automation on the other hand eliminates jobs as it goes

So does labor specialization, as you call it. Machine augmentation doesn't just create "more and more specific jobs"--it eliminates the old jobs that didn't require the knowledge of how to use the machines.

Also, even if a tractor isn't automated (it requires a human driver), it still enables one human to do work that it took many humans (about 20, with the present state of farm automation in the US) to do before. All those other jobs are indeed eliminated. Historically, farm laborers whose jobs disappeared went to the cities and started working in factories or learned a trade.

> My argument is that paying people to sit at home and watch soap operas is preferable to paying them to sit in jail cells.

Agreed, but my argument is that if those are the only two choices, we're doomed. Basically, you're saying society will, in the fairly near future, end up stagnant--all important jobs will be automated and all of the humans will just sit around watching soap operas (except, perhaps, for the small number of humans who oversee the automation). And I'm saying that such a society will collapse, because the rest of the universe is not stagnant. Things are always changing, and only humans--human thought and human ingenuity--can cope with change. (And if your answer is that we'll just invent AI and automate that too, that just means we'll be at the mercy of the AI, which I don't see as a good situation.)

> the idea that someone could live off of the excess production of our society is offensive to huge numbers of people

I would put this differently. I would say that the idea that someone could receive a basic living without producing anything that improves anyone's lives is offensive to huge numbers of people. And it should be.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is it would be more of a logistic curve (S-shaped) rather than logarithmic. $1 does not make you much happier than 1¢, but $50k/year is a big step up from $30k/year. At the low end, at some point you can afford to have a roof over your head, and an extra $20 might mean that you're eating much better for a whole week, or you can buy new shoes, or whatever. But if you're homeless, $20 won't feed you for very l…

Why do you think going from 0k -> 20k makes less of a difference than 30k -> 50k?(And we're talking about consumption not production, so weird things like having government benefits removed don't factor in).

I'm saying that $3 -> $5 is less of a difference than $30k -> $50k.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#158
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are basically limiting "produce" to mean produce basic subsistence items like food, clothing, and shelter. I would also include the arts, entertainment, service work, craftsmanship, etc. But going on... > Yes, of course the fraction of people that need to work to produce those things will decrease with automation--that's been happening for most of human history, and has been happening a lot faster since the Ind…

> I would also include the arts, entertainment, service work, craftsmanship, etc. But that destroys your argument, because these things are not automated and won't be any time soon. Automation certainly does not remove the need for humans to create works of art and entertainment, to perform services, to provide craftsmanship, etc. So if all those things are included in "produce", then there are lots of ways for human…

What's offensive is, the thought that the only good in a life is working like a slave to please an intellectual's ideal.

Its the old Protestant work ethic, which served us for a time but is rapidly becoming obsolete.

In the 1950's we wrote about how robots would remove the yoke of labor from our shoulders, let us go on to be creating and enjoy leisure. Now that it's happening, folks are panicking. Cries of "But people must work; its offensive if they have leisure!" go up on every discussion site.

Try to think outside the box. What might people accomplish if they're not required to labor at McD's for 8 hours a day?

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#159
post #153
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both are true. Software engineers tend to vote Democrat, but they're also much more likely to be libertarians than the average person. Or even "alt-right" to be honest. Outside of a general leftward bias, I think we seem to be more prone to exploring ideological extremes.

Alt-right is white nationalism. So you've gone from libertarian which is not really left or right (depends on issue but revolves mainly around a weak central government except as it relates to protecting civil liberties and national defense), completely skipped moderate conservatives, conservatives, and right wing, and even hard right, and landed on a blatantly racist movement that has no f'n idea how the economy eve…

"The base ideology requires people believe vicious things about 'the other' who happen to be merely different."

The "alt-right" are not the only ones who are guilty of this, unfortunately. This is a characteristic of the extremes of pretty much every political position or ideology.

Personally, the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality of both of the mainstream political parties is what drove me to vote Libertarian last election. Johnson's campaign seemed a lot more focused on welcoming folks with differing political views (which is unsurprising, given the rather long range of libertarianism from libertarian socialism to anarcho-capitalism, and given the fact that the Libertarian Party is in no position to be alienating voters), which was very refreshing amid both Clinton and Trump basing their campaigns on how bad the other candidate is (and further on how bad the other candidate's supporters are).

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#160
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would also include the arts, entertainment, service work, craftsmanship, etc. But that destroys your argument, because these things are not automated and won't be any time soon. Automation certainly does not remove the need for humans to create works of art and entertainment, to perform services, to provide craftsmanship, etc. So if all those things are included in "produce", then there are lots of ways for human…

What's offensive is, the thought that the only good in a life is working like a slave to please an intellectual's ideal. Its the old Protestant work ethic, which served us for a time but is rapidly becoming obsolete. In the 1950's we wrote about how robots would remove the yoke of labor from our shoulders, let us go on to be creating and enjoy leisure. Now that it's happening, folks are panicking. Cries of "But peopl…

> What's offensive is, the thought that the only good in a life is working like a slave to please an intellectual's ideal.

Which is not at all what I said.

> What might people accomplish if they're not required to labor at McD's for 8 hours a day?

Lots of things, I'm sure. And as long as those things improve people's lives in some way, I'm all for it.

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