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IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

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Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#111

Post by jrs95 »

davemp wrote: post #107
FussyZeus wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the least of which is mass automation, which removes one of the worst aspects of socialism and communism; the permanent working underclass. A friend of mine says Communism arrived 100 years too early, I'd say that's an excellent way to put it.

I'm curious as to where this mass automation story originated. I haven't seen any real evidence that anything besides the most basic repetitive tasks will be automated in the future. This automation would also likely just lead to a new set of low pay, desirable jobs. Sure, Moore's law and advancements in machine learning/vision push to make automation more economically viable for certain areas that were already good…

Trucking, fast food, and retail could face huge amounts of automation in the next few decades, and thats a massive amount of low end jobs that could disappear. I think the idea of "fully automated luxury communism" is pretty silly, but there's almost definitely going to be substantial job losses, and I think we're approaching a limit where we don't have good low skill jobs to replace them.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#112

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #105

// Automation replaces men. This of course is nothing new. What is new is that now, unlike most earlier periods, the displaced men have nowhere to go. The farmers displaced by mechanization of the farms in the 20's could go to the cities and man the assembly lines. As for the work animals like the mule, they could just stop growing them. But automation displaces people, and you don't just stop growing people even whe…

Another argument for basic income? The displacement of any worker who drives for a living as at our doorstep.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#113

Post by jrochkind1 »

acchow wrote: post #5

Serious question: if technology makes everyone better off but increases inequality, is that a bad outcome? Why or why not?

How do you know if it's making "everyone" better off or not? What does 'better off' mean, and how do you measure it?

If you could demonstrate it made 'everyone' better off, I think it'd be an interesting question to consider. But I suspect many of those at the bottom ends of our actually existing inequality are not so "better off".

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#114

Post by notahacker »

yters wrote: post #96
pdkl95 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mark Blyth (prof. of political economy at Brown) has advice for anyone with this attitude: "The Hamptons is not a defensible position"[1]. What are you going to do when a large fraction of the population starts getting hungry and they decide taking what they need from you (and everyone else with wealth/resources)? Do you really think that the police will simply arrest them? What about when someone starts shooting and…

In the long term isn't it economically better to get people out of this welfare culture so they can provide for themselves? Gangs aren't formed to feed starving people, they form because the culture is broken. In the long term, placating gangs with welfare money will backfire. Arguably it's the welfare money that significantly led to the culture breakdown in the first place by destroying economic and social structure…

> Arguably it's the welfare money that significantly led to the culture breakdown in the first place by destroying economic and social structure.

A cursory examination of the level of violent crime (particularly against property holders) in states where there is little or no welfare state compared with those in which there is a pretty comprehensive welfare state would suggest this isn't a very good argument...

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#115

Post by jrochkind1 »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #112
jrochkind1 wrote: post #105

// Automation replaces men. This of course is nothing new. What is new is that now, unlike most earlier periods, the displaced men have nowhere to go. The farmers displaced by mechanization of the farms in the 20's could go to the cities and man the assembly lines. As for the work animals like the mule, they could just stop growing them. But automation displaces people, and you don't just stop growing people even whe…

Another argument for basic income? The displacement of any worker who drives for a living as at our doorstep.

Yeah, I think that's actually the _main_ argument for UBI that's getting tech sector people and YCombinator interested in it.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#116

Post by jrs95 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #106
jrs95 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There does seem to be a hostility towards people who work in tech on the left. To me this feels like pandering to that by Clintonian types who don't actually have any interest in dealing with class issues.

I think there's hostility to the rich in general on the left. Not all people who work in tech are rich, but many of the, oh, top 10% of income earners, especially those someone else might come into contact with regularly, are in tech. And human nature to express more ire towards those you come into contact with regularly than those you never do.

I think that's partially true, but I also think it's because of negative stereotypes of people in tech being "nerds" who are to be looked down upon. It's more of a mismatch between what they think our social and economic class ought to be and what it actually is.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#117

Post by hidenotslide »

This article shows that IT has emerged as an important new industry, but it doesn't really convince me that it is the primary cause of inequality.

One of my favorite surveys of income inequality is a Krugman essay from 15 years ago (before he went full political). http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html

He briefly covers globalization, technology, and returns to scale for celebrities, but ultimately argues that changing social norms and the resulting drop in taxes from 1980 onward explains most of the dramatic rise in income inequality.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#118

Post by pdonis »

jrs95 wrote: post #79

It isn't the technology that's to blame for how the wealth it creates is distributed. That's just silly. And honestly, an efficient socialist economy is made much more realistic by modern technology. There's a lot that can be done to offset some of the downsides that have been associated with it in the past.

> an efficient socialist economy is made much more realistic by modern technology

No, it isn't, because no amount of technology will solve the fundamental information problem with centralized control, which is what any socialist economy must depend on. Nor can technology fix the fundamental incentive problem with socialist government, which is that decisions affecting everyone are made by people with the least amount of stake in their outcomes.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#119

Post by pdonis »

FussyZeus wrote: post #95
jrs95 wrote: post #79

It isn't the technology that's to blame for how the wealth it creates is distributed. That's just silly. And honestly, an efficient socialist economy is made much more realistic by modern technology. There's a lot that can be done to offset some of the downsides that have been associated with it in the past.

Not the least of which is mass automation, which removes one of the worst aspects of socialism and communism; the permanent working underclass. A friend of mine says Communism arrived 100 years too early, I'd say that's an excellent way to put it.

> mass automation, which removes one of the worst aspects of socialism and communism; the permanent working underclass

Mass automation doesn't remove the underclass; it just makes it a non-working underclass instead of a working underclass. That is not an improvement.

> A friend of mine says Communism arrived 100 years too early, I'd say that's an excellent way to put it.

Only if you think that Communism is potentially workable. It isn't. See my response to jrs95 upthread.

Re: IT is the cause of rising income and wealth inequality since the 1970s [pdf]

#120

Post by KirinDave »

jrs95 wrote: post #77
nippples wrote: post #29

I really thought it was corrupt politicians giving away public resources to private mega corporations, irresponsible financing systems, wall street selling lel bonds, the undermining of the national working class, bogus copyright laws that are designed to squish small and upcoming competition, and people purchasing garbage degrees instead of useful ones with money they don't have guaranteeing they'll be indebted for…

There does seem to be a hostility towards people who work in tech on the left. To me this feels like pandering to that by Clintonian types who don't actually have any interest in dealing with class issues.

Maybe, but be careful here though.

It's possible for both the parent post and the article to be on the right track. Wealth enables action and technology obviously enables and creates wealth.

It's also difficult to assign this to "Clintonian types" when in general the centrist side of the Democrats has been such an ardent supporter of the growth of the tech industry. They're eager to own the eneconic growth.

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