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“Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

businessinsider.com

311–320 of 335 posts

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#311
post #298
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the first engineer mentioned in the article is in no way coasting, but sounds like she's recovering from a burn out. It is incredibly important to let burnt out employees rest and recover.

I didn't understand why she was "livid" that her manager told her to take some time off, on full pay, to recover.

That's how workaholics work and why they burn out. Work above everything.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the people who were resting and vesting at Google were all making new messaging programs? They are up to 3 or 4 now?

Honestly it's the opposite. The way you get noticed and promoted at Google is by building something new, even if Google is already doing something else in that space. That's part of the reason there's so much duplication at Google. The VIPs (Vest In Peacers) are more inclined to do the easier thing of adopting and building on what's already there, which is of course the better thing: virtue of laziness and so forth.…

I know. I left off the /s. Sarcasm and the internet do not go well together :)

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#313
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To my surprise, when I announced my departure, a bunch of people suddenly came out of the woodwork to tell me that they really didn't want me to go, including a number of very senior managers. So I used that as leverage to negotiate a deal for myself: I would come back after a year on the condition that I be promoted to Principal. Which is what happened. Every time I hear how someone had to threaten to leave to get…

> Every time I hear how someone had to threaten to leave to get recognition/raise he deserves, the believe in meritocracy dies a little in me :). Well, there is this problem with all support and maintenance tasks: if you do everything perfectly, no one notices. It takes you leaving (or a threat of you leaving) for people to realize that your contributions are important to the operation. I don't think I've heard of an…

> there is this problem with all support and maintenance tasks: if you do everything perfectly, no one notices

Yet, this is also true for Ops, design, security... and also nurses, electricians, plumbers, a lot of "traditional" engineering, accounting... essentially most jobs, perhaps.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#314
post #248
post #34

It's not just SV that has this phenomenon. I worked at the NASA Jet Propulsion Lab from 1988 to 2000. I had risen to the rank of Senior Member of the Technical Staff, the second-highest rung on the technical career ladder. Beyond that there is the rank of Principal, which is very hard to attain. It's essentially the equivalent of getting tenure. It requires peer review. Most engineers never attain it, and I was not o…

> To my surprise, when I announced my departure, a bunch of people suddenly came out of the woodwork to tell me that they really didn't want me to go, including a number of very senior managers. So I used that as leverage to negotiate a deal for myself: I would come back after a year on the condition that I be promoted to Principal. Which is what happened. Every time I hear how someone had to threaten to leave to get…

What exactly does "meritocracy" mean to you?

    Employee: "Hey boss, you should give me a raise."
    Boss: "Why?"
    Employee: "Because if you don't then the opportunity cost 
               of working here will be too great for me to 
               stay."
    Boss: "Oh.  Ok.  Here's a raise."
The above seems like a perfectly reasonable conversation to me. And I can't see how else it should work. What it takes to retain an employee is so widely variable that it really can't be up to the employer to determine how much to pay each person they want to retain.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#315

I attended Caltech in the era that Feynman was a professor there. I heard he was paid XXX a year. I opined that was ridiculous, who could possibly be worth that much? An upperclassman laughed and told me that Feynman was worth that much to the university even if he did nothing. Attaching his name to the university brought in donations, grants, and top talent. Of course, Feynman being Feynman, worked like hell anyway.

What was the XXX figure? It'd be interesting to know.

I don't know, but "Surely you're joking, MR. Feynmann" contains an anecdote about a bidding war between Caltech and another university, at the end of which he turned down an even bigger offer in order to be at Caltech.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#316
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our human instincts can't deal with how many people there are in the world. A doctor can only treat one person at a time; even one who was saving a life every time they operated - let's say twice a day - would probably be saving less person-hours than someone who can make Google's results 1% faster. Our instincts recoil at the idea that that's more important (mine included), but our instincts were formed in a time wh…

You really think a single engineer's marginal contribution to speed improvements of Google search results or engagement improvements in Facebook's newsfeed are of similar value to highly-technical life-saving treatment, delivered at scale in hospitals? Certainly, I could imagine the latter being devalued, at the physician level, if there were good automated alternatives. But, there aren't. Does your opinion hold of e…

> You really think a single engineer's marginal contribution to speed improvements of Google search results or engagement improvements in Facebook's newsfeed are of similar value to highly-technical life-saving treatment, delivered at scale in hospitals?

It's not "at scale" though if we're talking about a single doctor, is my point. Of course saving a life is more important than saving one person a tenth of a second or making them slightly happier - but if you do enough of the latter then it adds up to something just as important as the former.

> Certainly, I could imagine the latter being devalued, at the physician level, if there were good automated alternatives. But, there aren't.

There's a limit to how much impact one doctor can have. A "10x doctor" can't save that many more lives, because they only ever save lives on a 1:1 basis.

> Does your opinion hold of engineers working on Snap and Instagram?

Yes, to the extent that they're actually enhancing people's lives. I've known Snapchat bring a lot of happiness to people, in a very human, social-based way; I don't know Instagram well enough but I'd imagine it's similar. It's certainly possible for well-paid engineers to be producing things that negatively impact other people (e.g. "dark patterns" in UI), but I think that's very much the exception rather than the rule.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#317
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers aren't advertised that way, and also Google is inverted in that you apply to Google and then after meeting a hiring bar for a level they match you with a specific role.

Right they aren't advertised that way, but they can certainly be interpreted that way. There's rarely any sort of explanation of the numbering system in job posts. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a III requires more experience than a I or II.

By not advertised I mean it simply isn't in the job posting. You apply to google and they talk to you during be process about the level.

https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e...

https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20...

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#318

I attended Caltech in the era that Feynman was a professor there. I heard he was paid XXX a year. I opined that was ridiculous, who could possibly be worth that much? An upperclassman laughed and told me that Feynman was worth that much to the university even if he did nothing. Attaching his name to the university brought in donations, grants, and top talent. Of course, Feynman being Feynman, worked like hell anyway.

What was the XXX figure? It'd be interesting to know.

Wikipedia claims that Feynman's first job after Los Alamos was at Cornell for $4,000 per year (~$54k/year inflation-adjusted). This claim is repeated in many sources, including the book "Genius: the life and science of Richard Feynman".

That book also makes the claim that in the 1960s (perhaps as early as 1960 itself), Feynman's salary crossed $20,000/year and that he was the highest-paid member of the faculty. Inflation-adjusted, that is at most $165k/year.

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#319

One of the interesting trends of the past 10 years is the degree to which "big tech" has replaced "big finance" as the place for the elite to go to collect huge paychecks for relatively "nice" white collar work. It makes total sense for top SV engineers to get paid well, IMO. But I am afraid working for these big tech firms is starting to have that feeling of "elite pedigree" that pervades complacent industries, like…

For physicians, is this really a 12-17 year training or just an artificial structure to defend lower salaries?

Re: “Rest and vest”: engineers who get paid and barely work

#320
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, risky/dumb things

To realize the benefit of ISOs you need long term gains treatment. That requires you "prepay" tax when you execute. It's the difference between 20% and 33%+ effective tax rate.

Just to be clear, sounds like you are referring to the company that was acquired (not Google, whose stock is liquid). Few startups have Early Exercise of stock options. For those that do, if one has the cash to do the exercise and the willingness to put the cash into that illiquid startup stock, it behooves them to do it as soon as they can, so that there is no difference between their Strike Price and the Fair Market Value, so the tax owed is $0 when they file their 83(b) election. If Early Exercise is not available, one could exercise the options as they vest, but that is entails both the risk of both owing taxes (since FMV would be higher than strike price by that time) in addition to putting cash into illiquid startup stock-- all for a potential benefit of slightly lower tax rate (33%+ vs 20%) when the hope of both appreciation and liquidity is realized. That's the risky/dumb thing I was referring to. Alternatively, they could simply hold the option, which costs them nothing, and just pay the normal taxes (33%+) when exercising and selling.
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