Airbnb dominated by professional landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#321

Post by FridgeSeal » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 4:44 AM UTC

Rjevski wrote: post #288

x220 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And an international regulation avoidance service.

Which I couldn't care less about as long as they improve my daily life. I can book and pay an Uber in two clicks and it arrives on time. Why should I care about an idiot politician not getting their pockets filled because Uber aren't complying with regulations forcing them to fill his pockets?

Right sure, because the regulations are only there for a politician to fill their pockets and for no other reasons, and fuck consumer protections let's just let corporations do whatever they want because "fuck you I've got mine, and I got it on time".

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#322

Post by BMorearty » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:03 AM UTC

bluescreenofwin wrote: post #304

BMorearty wrote: post #70

Airbnb employee here. (Software engineer; I don't speak for the company.) Personally, I like staying in listings that are owned and operated by the resident. It's more personal and it lets me connect more with some locals. One of my favorite nights at an Airbnb was a dinner with the delightful couple who rented out a room in their Paris apartment. Much less enjoyable was a night in a Seattle room--it was very clean a…

As an employee, would you say that the article summarizes a legitimate problem?

That's a great question. I'll start by repeating that I don't know the specifics of the market in Germany at all and the article focused on Germany, so my comments are more general than what was described in the article.

The sense I get within the company is that we have a pretty strong preference for the small owner over someone who has many properties. There are a lot of reasons for this. A big reason for this is ideological: we truly believe in Airbnb as a human platform, not just a place to find lodging but a place to connect with other human beings.

Internally, at least in my circles, we don't focus on supporting property managers. It hasn't come up in any meeting I've been in over the 2 years I've been here. In fact I've seen plenty of bugs caused by an engineer not considering the fact that an owner might have a lot of properties. That wouldn't happen if everyone was always like "don't forget the property managers!"

More directly answering your question: I believe the article is summarizing something that is a legitimate problem in some cities, which is why Airbnb has engaged with cities and has banned multi-property owners in some. But I also think the article is using hyperbole and flawed logic to exaggerate the problem. Two examples:

1. "Even though Airbnb told the SZ that the focus of its business model was "home-sharing," the platform appears to actively encourage professionalization - with tips including stipulating set check-in times." How do tips about stipulating set check-in times encourage so-called "professionalization?" That just seems weird. Naturally we ask hosts to specify the check-in time. Guests want to know that information.

2. "Some 58 percent of all offers on Airbnb in Germany are entire apartments or even apartment blocks - meaning professional landlords are effectively the core of Airbnb's business." I find this dubious. Tons of hosts list an entire home/apartment even when it's their only listing. The cottage behind my house is listed as an entire home/apartment because it's not a shared space, but it's my only listing and my wife and I clean it ourselves. There are a lot of people who only rent out their place when they are on vacation, to help pay for the vacation. That doesn't create the "emptying of inner city neighborhoods" that the article describes.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#323

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:08 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #268

zimablue wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that you can actually call increasing property prices a negative externality. It's a natural consequence of making that tourism more efficient. It's like someone invented a way to turn fruit into gold and you're complaining that it drives the price of fruit up. Well, OK that has some bad effects but they're almost by definition (like, how economics works) less than the positive effects of now having mor…

That is very much a rich person's answer. It's certainly "more efficient" for the wealthy if they can drive poorer people from their homes when the rich find it convenient. But that's not what it feels like if you're on the other end of it.

if the demand for property in an area grows, the poor is going to get priced out no matter what. Whether it's airbnb doing it, or some other factor (like tech investment money or something to such an effect).

The problem to solve isn't to stop airbnb from working, but to increase the opportunity for the poor to get out of poverty. Otherwise, the next airbnb-like disruption will cause the exact same problem for the poor.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#324

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:22 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #278

zyx321 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uncapped rent will lead to people getting priced out of their homes by the first person willing to outbid them. Nothing unforeseen about that.

There are others, though. For example, there are a couple of basic asymmetries that advantage landlords. One is that they generally have multiple units, whereas renters generally have only one. So the end of a lease is a bigger deal to the renter than the landlord. Another is that the costs (in time and money) of a tenant move are much higher for the renter than the landlord. This means that a greedy landlord can jac…

> jack the rent well above market price

if the renter is able to accept the "jacked up" price, then by definition that's the market price (for that property). The renter needs to move if they don't like the price. The landlord also don't like vacant properties, and is perhaps eager to not "jack up" the price if they find that the tenant moves as soon as they do!

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#325

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:29 AM UTC

trevyn wrote: post #9

yalogin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that what a family owned hotel/inn is?

No, Airbnb typically lists actual, real everyday apartments, so you feel like you're living in the city like a local, not in a hotel. If you haven't tried it, it's a great feeling.

That's not the real selling point of airbnb, but rather that it's much cheaper than hotels in a similar area.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#326

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:37 AM UTC

solatic wrote: post #122

pfarnsworth wrote: post #28

Is this a surprise? If you look at eBay, it's also dominated by professional sellers as well. In some sense it makes it better because you have motivated people handling the transaction, not one-off people that might not take the transaction seriously.

> not one-off people that might not take the transaction seriously But this is exactly what's needed to keep costs down. Consumers have the choice of professionally managed and regulated hotels, for a higher price, or to take a chance on some guy's couch in a basement, for very cheap, because hospitality isn't couch-guy's day job and it's just a way for him to make an extra quick buck. That couch-guy is a one-off is…

> using AirBNB to skirt regulations.

i'd like to hear what sort of regulations that are being skirted. I keep hearing about things like fire safety laws, and escape hatches etc. Why does being used as a hotel force an apartment to be more stringent than it originally was? Shouldn't the safety regulations be the same no matter what?

As for zoning laws - those are arbituary lines drawn by the city planners. As a property owner, you have to make the best use of the property, and if airbnb brings in more money, you _have_ to do it, otherwise, you'd be losing value. City planners cannot forsee this, and so zoning laws will be broken no matter what.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#327

Post by pixelmonkey » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:38 AM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #319

pixelmonkey wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ordinary folks just didn't travel like this in the past, getting to know distant cities right from the ground floor. Not quite true. In 2005, I did a long road trip in Italy. In that year, in almost every gas station in Italy, you could buy books with listings of local B&B's and "agriturismo" locales, which were essentially B&B's that were on farms and usually included a farm dinner with the hosting family, in addi…

> You can imagine why this market exists in Italy: the hotels in every city are geared toward tourists (thus, lots of $$$) but Italians have such a beautiful (and geographically small) country, and they needed a way to do local tourism at affordable prices. I imagine the fact that you needed to call the owners (and speak Italian to them) acted as a barrier against tourists. That makes no sense. Of course Italians sta…

> In Italy they are literally called "bed and breakfast", in English, because they are not a local invention: they were borrowed from the impoverished and benighted country known as the UK.

I think they refer to these as "bed & breakfast" (in English) these days across EU countries, but back in 2005 when I traveled in Italy, that was not the term they used. They referred to them as "affittacamere", which translated literally means, "rooms for rent".

I never said that agriturismi (or B&Bs) were invented to keep tourists out.

I simply reflected on how it was an enjoyable mode of travel for local Italians visiting different parts of their own country, and also affordable. I remember how my own Italian family told me they never stayed in hotels when traveling through the country -- mainly due to cost, but also because it just didn't feel authentic to them.

As for the agriturismi themselves, they have their roots in state law in Italy; it's a special designation that, as you rightly point out, was meant to provide farm owners a new revenue stream. However, you may be surprised to learn that Italians themselves are often the customers. Usually cherished more for the opportunity to experience family style meals cooked from local ingredients than for the countryside views, but it's all part of the experience.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#328

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 5:41 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #76

And bitcoin is dominated by professional miners. Open source and the Web is dominated by large corporations like Google and Facebook. And sports tickets and restaurant reservations are scalped. I wonder if all these peer to peer marketplaces tend to become dominated by professionals and even the original industry they are supposed to disrupt. Wikipedia seems to have prevented this, as has HN. Any solutions?

why prevent professionals from doing anything? Professionals are professional because they do it better than an amateur.

Scalping is a different issue - the ticket price is priced too low. Scalping is a sign of market inefficiency (and scalpers are there to take advantage of it). If the tickets are priced correctly (e.g., via an auction system), then there won't be any scalpers.

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#329

Post by schrodinger » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 6:08 AM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #320

schrodinger wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By bearing the negative externalities of your short term rental? I lived above an NYC airbnb for a while, and of course it was always a noisy partying crew. Which of course makes sense because it's people on holiday/vacation renting on airbnb! But it's pretty disruptive to someone renting the next apartment who isn't on vacation.

What if you get a noisy neighbor who isn't an AirBnB guest, but lives there permanently? That seems worse. Do you have no recourse in that case?

Why wouldn't you have recourse in that case?

Re: Airbnb dominated by professional landlords

#330

Post by bartvk » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 6:08 AM UTC

pixelmonkey wrote: post #327

Camillo wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can imagine why this market exists in Italy: the hotels in every city are geared toward tourists (thus, lots of $$$) but Italians have such a beautiful (and geographically small) country, and they needed a way to do local tourism at affordable prices. I imagine the fact that you needed to call the owners (and speak Italian to them) acted as a barrier against tourists. That makes no sense. Of course Italians sta…

> In Italy they are literally called "bed and breakfast", in English, because they are not a local invention: they were borrowed from the impoverished and benighted country known as the UK. I think they refer to these as "bed & breakfast" (in English) these days across EU countries, but back in 2005 when I traveled in Italy, that was not the term they used. They referred to them as "affittacamere", which translated l…

> Usually cherished more for the opportunity to experience family style meals cooked from local ingredients than for the countryside views

These people have their priorities straight.