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Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

nautil.us

181–190 of 204 posts

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#181
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, before humans, there were eukaryotes, and prokaryotes before them. My argument is not supporting that the universe is a baby. It is saying that the being does not exist because it could not have evolved on this timescale, in the same way that single celled organisms are not human babies.

If we assume that the big bang was actually the conception event of some other cosmic entity, the universe could very easily be a living organism that's the equivalent of a few microsecond old fertilized zygote. So yes, a universe sized lifeform could not have evolved randomly since the big bang, but you can only be confident about that if you assume that nothing exists outside the spacetime bubble we call the univer…

Suppose an organism is born and lives for 100 years. The organism is 10 metres across. However the rate of propagation of chemicals, blood, nerve signals, etc across its body is only 1mm per year. So over the 100 years if someone touched one of its extremities, the signal for that event would only have propagated across 10% of the diameter of the organism in its lifetime.

Does it really make sense to talk about it as being a single organism? How could it do anything in a coordinated way?

Or how about an organism that grows at say 10m in diameter per year, but signals across its body only propagate at 1cm per year? Again, how can it be considered to be functioning as a discrete organism? Surely if such a being evolved, its parts would perforce do so independently of each other? There could be no cross-organism coordination. It would have to disintegrate or devolve into local functional or operational units if it were to do anything effective at all.

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#182
post #91

It's answer of "No" is predicated on two assumptions: that the lifeform is not colonial in nature and that time is not a localized phenomenon. While on the surface that later assumption might sound absurd, our universe could very well be a Local Bubble of time. Time could even be a biological function of a higher dimensional being that is the size of the universe. There is also no way to disprove that without observi…

The position that time is not a localized phenomenon is preposterous. Given the observations of relativity and the effect that local gravitational force has on passage of time, and more recent experiment and theory about time actually arising as an effect of quantum entanglement ( https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.4691 ), to presume in the context of such a big, extremely-theoretical idea that time is not local is plain nut…

> preposterous

Well, specifically, proper-time intervals are path-local in General Relativity (GR). There is a unique coordinate-invariant proper-time interval between two points on a timelike worldline.

I think that extending that to "time is a localized phenomenon" is harder than it seems, notably because worldlines depend on the full solution of the Einstein Field Equations. In a Big Bang cosmology (with a hyperbolization of the EFEs and ignoring constraints and diffeomorphism freedom), it's pretty brave to deny a relationship between the early boundary and the values of the fields at any point p on the manifold given that the causal cone at p of M contains the Big Bang.

> effect that local gravitational force has on the passage of time

It's the metric that leads to Lorentzian observables between observers at different points in the manifold. The metric near bodies like Earth closely approximates that of Schwarzschild spacetime in the way it generates geodesics including the null geodesics (among others) carrying information from one observer to another. Effects like gravitational redshift arise from the fact that in spacetime more-curved paths are shorter than less-curved paths (as opposed to how curved paths are longer than straight paths through Euclidean space).

The metric's generation of geodesics is difficult to relate to a classical force or potential in general. Two objects in vacuum free-fall can be at different gravitational potential while feeling no force whatsoever; the one at higher potential ticks faster. It's a bit easier in near-Schwarzschild. Consider two atomic clocks falling from different altitudes[1] towards the same point on the (practically atmosphere-free) moon; almost all observers will agree that the higher clock runs faster than the lower clock until they are both smashed together on the surface. Yet if each clock is equipped with an vector accelerometer, both accelerometers will point nowhere in particular with a magnitude of zero from the start of their free-fall trajectory until collision with the moon's surface -- the first time force is reported by the accelerometers is when "lithobraking" starts.

However, properly considering gravitational potential as a 4-vector generally requires some choices which eat the redundancies in the Einstein Field Equations. In General Relativity one has only the metric and Christoffel symbols and tedious arguments about which mathematical objects correspond to a Newtonian notion of a gravitational field (answer: "it depends" or "none of them"). Gauge-fixing lets one set a "depends" condition such that one can recover a vector potential field and a scalar field strength at each point; this approach is taken very seriously in Fedosin's covariant theory of gravitation for instance.

> effect that local gravitational force has on passage of time

Even if one takes steps to model some aspects of the gravitational interaction as a force, the proper time interval of an object doesn't change with the force acting on it. But the frequencies, lengths and related quantities of an object at some distance does depend on the force the object feels compared to the force the observer feels. (Moreover, if observers are in vacuum free-fall then they will feel no force at all, and can only infer the gravitational interaction from either a deviation from a straight-line track on a choice of coordinates, or by comparing the ticking rates of their own wristwatch with the wristwatch of several observer at some distance -- from [Synge 1960] this would take a minimum of five freely-falling wristwatches in total).

Generally the complexities of setting down this kind of gauge-and-coordinate conditions leads relativists away from worrying about relating GR's mathematical objects and Newton's, and it's easier to say "gravitation is not a force" rather than "with some effort you can treat gravitation as a force in local coordinates and in a local gauge but you'll still find yourself returning to the Special Relativistic forms of physics equations because they genuinely are the simplest form and are always valid in the neighbourhood around a point on a geodesic".

> if one considers the theories and research related to what I linked above

General Relativity is in extremely precise accord with observation at many length scales and direct experiment within the solar system. Deviations from General Relativity that are different in the limit of the parameterized post-Newtonian formalism (which applies at solar system scales) are almost entirely ruled out. Although it is perfectly reasonable to consider General Relativity to be an emergent theory, the theory it emerges from is (a) unknown (b) unobvious and (c) extremely difficult to take guesses at. Indeed, your offer of 1310.4691 is wholly rooted in this: canonically quantized GR conflicts violently with observations and experiments, and the usual workaround is to do some condition-fixing (which your referenced paper does) and then to try to get around the pseudo-forces brought in to describe local physics (in models like Page-Wooter these pseudo-forces appear as constraints in the theory ([2], which your authors reference in their first sentence and several times thereafter). The paper you point to also notes that the proposed experiment cannot select among a number of theories including General Relativity (where the Hamiltonian itself is a constraint).

> To me, time not being local is the controversial position.

I dunno, we do appear to live in an observable universe which admits an obvious equatorial 3+1 slicing in which there are an awful lot of Eulerian and nearly-Eulerian observers. Is the hill to die on the alignment of one's "natural" choice of timelike axis with the metric expansion or the way you put down coordinates on that axis? And how do you square either of those choices with the initial value formalism?

- --

[1] This is implicitly fixing a gauge wherein the surface of the moon is special; this is analogous to having a set of tunable air-pressure gauges at a point at sea level and setting it to 0 there, then using the readings of the tuned pressure gauges in helicopters riding above one another over the 0 point in order to say things about the state of each helicopter. In particular, one would use the reading of the pressure gauge as the basis of a coordinate axis (e.g. in marking coordinates on the radial axis in spherical coordinates on the 0-calibration point, or on the z axis in a choice of Cartesian coordinates on the 0-calibration point).

[2] K. Kuchař, in G. Kunstatter, D. Vincent, and J. Williams (eds), Proceedings of the 4th Canadian Conference on General Relativity and Relativistic Astrophysics, (Singapore, World Scientific, 1992).

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#183
> Stars are best regarded as living organisms, but organisms which are physiologically and psychologically of a very peculiar kind. The outer and middle layers of a mature star apparently consist of “tissues” woven of currents of incandescent gases. These gaseous tissues live and maintain the stellar consciousness by intercepting part of the immense flood of energy that wells from the congested and furiously active interior of the star. The innermost of the vital layers must be a kind of digestive apparatus which transmutes the crude radiation into forms required for the maintenance of the star’s life. Outside this digestive area lies some sort of coordinating layer, which may be thought of as the star’s brain. The outermost layers, including the corona, respond to the excessively faint stimuli of the star’s cosmical environment, to light from neighboring stars, to cosmic rays, to the impact of meteors, to tidal stresses caused by the gravitational influence of planets or of other stars. These influences could not, of course, produce any clear impression but for a strange tissue of gaseous sense organs, which discriminate between them in respect of quality and direction, and transmit information to the correlating “brain” layer.

From Star Maker by Olaf Stapledon, Chapter 11, Stars and Vermin

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/stapledon/olaf/star/chapter...

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#184
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A zoo is still a zoo if there aren't any animals in it Is it? Identity is an interesting thing. To use a commonly-cited example-- if I swap out the muffler of my car and toss the original in the backyard, I think most would say I am still driving the same car. If I do the same with the front left tire, it's still essentially my car. Even if replace all four tires, same. But what if I swap one part a day with a repl…

Well, technically speaking, at least for a car, you can draw a pretty clear line. Your car is your car because it is registered in your name through a number soldered on its frame. Changing the frame would change that number and you wouldn't be driving the same car, at least from a legal point of view. But yeah, is a zoo without animals still a zoo? Hard to say. Even without animals, a zoo would retain its potential…

It's hard to say because it's not a yes/no question, and the most useful answer is going to be very context/state dependent.

A zoo isn't a collection of animals - it's a social, financial, and cultural structure with associated buildings, signage, web site, and staff, that usually houses animals.

If you lose the animals temporarily, you can keep the rest and still have a zoo. (This has actually happened during wartime evacuations.)

If you lose everything, you have a former zoo.

We have minds that put simple labels on complex relationships.

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#185
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about what exists outside the universe always makes my brain feel weird. It seems impossible for your thoughts to imagine anything because your thoughts themselves are bound by the universe itself.

I think it feels weird because we define universe as having neither outside nor boundaries. There's a contradiction in terms. It ceases to feel strange as soon as you update the concept to something that has a boundary either in its spacial extension or through some kind of extra dimension.

> we define universe as having neither outside nor boundaries

Do we?

> boundaries

There's one at the Big Bang. You can go through contortions to try to remove it (Hartle & Hawking's "no boundary proposal"; Carroll & Chen's "two-ways-to-de-Sitter from arbitrary initial surface") but so far attempts have come at the cost of introducing a lot more conceptual baggage.

> outside

"more of mostly the same" unless you think that one metre or one light year or two hundred million light years beyond the Hubble radius the universe is vastly different from the stars and galaxies we have around here. What could have happened to early galaxies that 200 million years ago were in principle observable from the Milky Way, such that they wouldn't now resemble the descendants of early galaxies that are 200 million light years closer to us?

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more bacterial cells in your body than there are human cells. Where exactly do you draw the line between what constitutes "you."

I guess you are just an ever changing object, referenced by a name, created by your parents and affected by your environment. Human myName = new Human(mother, father, environment, spacetime); Location birthPlace = myName.mother.getCurrentLocation; location bithTime = myName.myMother.getCurrentBirthTime; myName.removeAllLimbs(); myName.upgradeAllLimbs(); CloneUtils.cloneHuman(myName, 'myClone') AssertEquals(myName, my…

Human individuals are a dynamic, changing pattern that persist for 80 years or so.

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#187
Quick reminder: We don't know what the majority of the mass/energy of the universe is. Dark matter is ~20% of the universe and pretty much all we know about it is that 'it falls down'. Dark Energy is ~75% of the universe and all we know about it is that it makes galaxies accelerate away from each other. So, defining life or intelligence as we do is maybe not the best idea for long term thinking.

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more bacterial cells in your body than there are human cells. Where exactly do you draw the line between what constitutes "you."

A zoo is still a zoo if there aren't any animals in it, but it wouldn't stay in business very long. No matter how important the animals are to the long-term viability of the zoo, they are not the zoo. My gut bacteria may be vital to my survival, but they are not me. I don't find placing that line to be difficult at all.

> "A zoo is still a zoo if there aren't any animals..."

Sounds like a Zoo-Wannabe to me.

Re: Can a Living Creature Be as Big as a Galaxy?

#190

Quick reminder: We don't know what the majority of the mass/energy of the universe is. Dark matter is ~20% of the universe and pretty much all we know about it is that 'it falls down'. Dark Energy is ~75% of the universe and all we know about it is that it makes galaxies accelerate away from each other. So, defining life or intelligence as we do is maybe not the best idea for long term thinking.

The ocean is mostly water, so hypothesizing the size of a whale is not the best idea for long term thinking.
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