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Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

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Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#31

Post by BrandoElFollito »

tombrossman wrote: post #19
cm2187 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. A violent reaction would be justified. It's like mugging someone with a fake gun. The victim has no way to tell whether the gun is fake or whether his life is at risk, and a violent reaction would be legitimate.

Just to clarify, a violent reaction (in self defence) might be justified. It's not automatic, and would have to be proportional. For example, it might be enough to simply grab the person and hold them down on the ground until the police arrive unless it quickly became obvious that it was just a harmless prank. If they sprayed you with something harmful, or decide to resist being detained then yes, it may be necessary…

I was attacked twice, with bare fists. I was surprised, terrified and did not act rationally. I also have 15+ years of offensive self-defense training (dojo training).

The muscular memory kicked in and I responded to the attack ferociously. I hit him once, twice, three times (blood was splashing around), then finished him with a kick which sent a few of his teeth out. The guy was laying on the floor and yelling as if he was being skinned.

I called the police, they came and I explained them that I was attacked and that this was the effect of my defense. They dutifully noted that I was afraid, shocked, terrified, etc. and beside a round to the police station to sign off a paper I never heard about the ceases again.

I believe that that the response should be proportionate, but to the clear advantage of the victim.

Being hit once and hitting 5 times back - OK. Being slapped and responding by a kick to the body and then another one to the head - OK. Someone attacks you with a knife and you shoot him back with a gun - OK. Being attacked by a 15 yo and hitting him back as if he was an adult - OK

All these is defense against unknown and there is no reason to stop before you are safe (you do not know what that person is going to do next).

Hitting someone, he is not lying on the floor unconscious and you keep on kicking his head - not OK, there was no more risk. Someone runs away with your bag and you shoot him in the head - not OK, you were not in direct danger.

What I want to say is that the proportionality should have a 10x factor in favour of the victim.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#33

Post by barrkel »

wdb wrote: post #25
barrkel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80% male, both perpetrators and victims: http://www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/crime-court/eas... At this point it's mostly gang on gang, and probably driven by anti-knife enforcement. Scooter riders snatching phones are a bigger threat to tourists. The two have been combined recently though, using scooter + acid to hijack and steal other scooters and bikes. This in turn is driven by police not chasing two whe…

Driving a bike and easing a phone is a bad thing anyways. Just as bad as car driving and phone

The guys on scooters are snatching phones from pedestrians.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#34

Post by weinzierl »

> "Bystanders who come to the aid of the victim of an attack can have an important role in minimising further injury," [..]

> They urged bystanders to remove victims from exposure as soon as possible and apply "copious" amounts of water on the affected area, "to minimize the long-term effects of scarring and need for surgical reconstruction."

The "'copious' amounts of water on the affected area" part can't be stressed enough and also that the victim is likely too shocked to do this themselves. Also, try to not get any acid in your mouth and avoid to swallow it under any circumstances.

I attended a talk by Katie Piper[1] last year and someone asked her what her first reaction was after the attack happened. She said that she looked down her body and saw her clothes dissolving and her first worry was that people could see her naked. She also said the the attack took place in a busy street [2] but it took a long time until anyone helped her.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Piper

[2] I think she said High Street in her talk but Wikipedia disagrees.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#35

Post by exergy »

collyw wrote: post #30
tombrossman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what percentage of these people end up recording themselves getting their asses kicked instead? Imagine you are in a foreign city and someone sprayed yourself or a loved one with an unknown substance. I'm not talking about a child with a squirt gun innocently playing around, I mean another adult behaving differently from social norms. I have to think the probability of a violent reaction is pretty high.

Getting their asses kicked gets them more hits, so some young youtubers actually aim for that. Though I am never sure how many of them are fake.

Not even thirty, but every day I understand the world less and less.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#36

Post by sinaa »

dagaci wrote: post #20

Acid attacks are mostly related to business disputes, sex, marriage, robbery and honor disputes. The stats and location's where the acid attacks take place: https://www.statista.com/chart/10289/acid-attacks-in-london/ and https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/disclosure_...

Thanks for the links.

What scares me is that over 1/3 of incidents were marked as "Investigation complete; no suspect identified".

And only 18% of attacks (156/833) resulted in a "Charged/Summoned" outcome.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#37

Post by kyrre »

acdjuiamadfn wrote: post #9

Are there any patterns in the data? I'd like to find out: 1) If these are people who have commited a crime before 2) Were raised in certain cultures/locations 3) Are gangs

data, stats and patterns?

sounds like xenophobia to me, mate.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#38

Post by roceasta »

tombrossman wrote: post #19
cm2187 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. A violent reaction would be justified. It's like mugging someone with a fake gun. The victim has no way to tell whether the gun is fake or whether his life is at risk, and a violent reaction would be legitimate.

Just to clarify, a violent reaction (in self defence) might be justified. It's not automatic, and would have to be proportional. For example, it might be enough to simply grab the person and hold them down on the ground until the police arrive unless it quickly became obvious that it was just a harmless prank. If they sprayed you with something harmful, or decide to resist being detained then yes, it may be necessary…

I'm reminded of the Mike Tyson quote: "Everyone has a plan until..." So if I saw friend or family being sprayed with an unknown substance I hope I would err on the side of caution rather than exhibiting the learned helplessness that so many of my fellow Brits seem to have succumbed to. I also expect my judgment as to exactly where that line of caution is would be impaired.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#39

Post by foop2 »

sprash wrote: post #23
junkculture wrote: post #4

Is this peculiar to London or do other places in the UK have the same problem?

This is a Pakistani Muslim problem. So avoid bigger cities. I lived for 10 months in Birmingham, I had to leave because even though I'm a grown man I could not tolerate the terror of people throwing rocks at your window at night. Besides the area around the main Concert Hall there is no particular "British" culture left in that city and acid attacks are definitely not done by local Brits. Nobody says anything because…

That is bullshit there are plenty of areas in Birmingham that have equally scummy white people in them. Also if people are throwing rocks at you, you are def in the wrong area, it's a city there are some places you can't go, it's a bit like walking through inner city LA and being surprised you got robbed.

Re: Fears for tourists in London as acid attacks escalate in recent weeks

#40

Post by tigershark »

MichaelGG wrote: post #5

Odd/interesting that they don't mention motives. They give one example of using acid to commit a mugging. Yet[1] seems to state that acid attacks are mostly male-on-female violence for relationships/shame issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_throwing#Epidemiology So it is a real threat to tourists? It's like when you hear about high crime in some area, but it's mostly gang members killing each other -- it's a s…

It is a real threat. This kind of mugging crimes increased alarmingly especially in east London. Just reading the local newspapers you will find 5-6 such attacks each week. Do you have any source for your hypothesis?
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