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ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

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Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#191

Post by kodfodrasz »

danieltillett wrote: post #180
Animats wrote: post #108

The elevator industry has been playing around with multi-cab systems for many years. The Otis Odyssey system (1997) [1] had cabs that could move both horizontally and vertically. The cabs were more like containers carried vertically in ordinary elevators and slid out sideways for horizontal movement. Otis built a full-sized prototype, but nobody ever ordered one. Otis considered ropeless elevators, but in 1997 it loo…

I am wondering if the solution is to use modular counterweights that can also be moved sideways and swapped around too.

I wonder how you wonder to use that.

Do you know the principle of a traditional elevator, and the role of a counterweight?

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#192

Post by danieltillett »

kodfodrasz wrote: post #191
danieltillett wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am wondering if the solution is to use modular counterweights that can also be moved sideways and swapped around too.

I wonder how you wonder to use that. Do you know the principle of a traditional elevator, and the role of a counterweight?

Yes I do know how a counterweights work. In principle if the elevator can be shift sideways then the counterweights can be too. Of course when the elevator goes up and down it will need to be linked to a counterweight, but as long as this linkage can be made transient then should work.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#193

Post by kodfodrasz »

danieltillett wrote: post #192
kodfodrasz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how you wonder to use that. Do you know the principle of a traditional elevator, and the role of a counterweight?

Yes I do know how a counterweights work. In principle if the elevator can be shift sideways then the counterweights can be too. Of course when the elevator goes up and down it will need to be linked to a counterweight, but as long as this linkage can be made transient then should work.

I am not convinced by your understanding.

The elevator conserves energy by having a counterweight, and the work needed for moving the elevator (disregarding the loss of the system) is 0 if the elevator is empty and the counterweight is the same weight of the elevator.

This is true for the length of the rope.

Now if you have a 99 storey building, with side moving elevators, you cannot have counterweights, as the ropes would be in each others' way when moving sideways. Either having a rope in way for 99 storeys in worst case, or with shorter ropes you increase complexity even further and negate the energy saving. if travelling further than the length of the rope.

The only advantage of this design is the lack of ropes. The downside is increased energy use.

Regarding transient linkings: even more complexity, and possibly the cabins need to wait for the counterweight to arrive, and hand over the counterweights? Even scheduling complexity is increased. Totally useless, as to have it a bit feasable you need to sill keed the functionality of counterweightless motion.

You can understand this by drawing if still not clear.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#194

Post by willyt »

wlesieutre wrote: post #139
DenisM wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you could just hang two elevators on one set of cables in the same shaft? They will have to move in sync and the range will be cut in half, but the throughput will nearly double during the rush hour. In a tall building could be an acceptable tradeoff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-deck_elevator is like that, but right on top of each other so the range isn't reduced. Most people are going between the ground floor and whatever floor their destination is on, so a shaft with two cars that go 0-50 and 51-100 wouldn't be very useful.

Actually it's quite common to have cars in the same 'shaft' serving a subset of floors. The original world trade centre towers pioneered this system. Express elevators take you to transfer lobbies and then you transfer to local elevators for intermediate floors. The locals for different sets of levels occupy the same footprint within the building.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#195

Post by 35bge57dtjku »

kurthr wrote: post #188
35bge57dtjku wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not invent and install spiral escalators? That would give you the high throughput of the paternoster more safely. You could still have a few elevators for travel between the higher up 'elevator lobbies' people mentioned.

Wow, cool... they have! http://gizmodo.com/feast-your-eyes-on-the-worlds-largest-spi... There must be more spiral escalators now. I know there's one in Nordstrom's too.

Nice. I was picturing one more like a spiral staircase though, where the inner edge of each step touches an inner pole.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#196

Post by altstar »

jjoe wrote: post #156

This might read a bit odd and tangential but I cringe every time I get into a ThyssenKrupp elevator. Thyssen and Krupp were huge fans of Hitler and the Nazis. The two families donated large sums of money to their cause. They both benefited from Hitler's support and promoted the use of forced labor. ThyssenKrupp is largely seen as a Hitler firm in many circles. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThyssenKrupp [1] https:…

I think you can give it a rest. It has been 70 years.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#197

Post by gruturo »

35bge57dtjku wrote: post #177
gruturo wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm rather sure they haven't. Source: Myself, working in a high-rise building served by ~20 ThyssenKrupp elevators, 10 of which actually share 5 shafts (they're not the ropeless version though, AFAIK), and the scheduling sucks big time . We got them to informally acknowledge that they're being wiped every night to get around some nasty bugs, so they never learn traffic patterns, but even then it's infuriating to see…

I've seen them work ok in an office building with ~15 floors and 6 elevators until lunch time, when the extra traffic made them take far longer than it seemed they should have. I'm guessing those didn't detect if no one got in the car and they still went to all their scheduled floors.

I'm sure it's more than that:

The express lifts remain for too long at the "key" floors to pick up more people. This is probably some energy vs practicality balance that can be adjusted, and that we're very likely guilty of.

The normal lifts will happily depart with nobody inside if you don't sprint to them because the consoles are 25ft away.

You book 2 adjacent floors, you get 2 lifts scheduled for only those floors. So much for saving energy, and also, now 2 lifts are busy instead of 1.

The fancy giant touchscreens are a nightmare: small touch targets, 80% of the screen devoted to static diagrams, the resistive touch film already failed in the hot spots, esp. because you are forced to touch some areas even though you have no choice!! (Choose north or south tower. Oh you chose the south tower but you're in the north one. Sorry you can't do that).

I could go on... but, in a nutshell: these people can do hardware. They fail big time at software, both the scheduling engine and the UI.

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#199

Post by smoyer »

e12e wrote: post #158
smoyer wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rode one of those "terrifying" elevators in the '90s in Frankfurt DE and it wasn't actually scary. I could in fact be dangerous but people are pretty smart about not being stupid near them. I will admit that we taped a piece of paper to the floor to make sure the cabin (which was completely carpeted) didn't flip over at the top before we rode it the whole way around.

Could you expand on your "safety paper"? Was it taped to the top floor, as a signal to get out?

No ... since the elevator compartments were completely carpet covered, we wanted to make sure they didn't flip over when then went around the top and bottom (and yes it was taped to the floor).

Re: ThyssenKrupp Multi – world’s first rope-free elevator [video]

#200

Post by e12e »

smoyer wrote: post #199
e12e wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on your "safety paper"? Was it taped to the top floor, as a signal to get out?

No ... since the elevator compartments were completely carpet covered, we wanted to make sure they didn't flip over when then went around the top and bottom (and yes it was taped to the floor).

Did you try and snap any broom handles between the floor of the elevator and the top of the doors? Seems like the greater danger, tbh.. :)
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