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About This Googler's Manifesto

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Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that it implies that men are in higher, more well paid positions because of inherent biological traits. If you truly believe people are equal and deserving of equal treatment then you must see a society where white men are the most powerful, most privileged class, as a failure of society. The author cannot claim to believe in equality and then go on to justify inequality with biological traits.

There's zero evidence that people are equal. Physically, everyone knows and admits this. Women are given separate physical contests as they are smaller, slower, and weaker than men. Certain races do better in some sports - no one can make a fuss, as it's obvious, plus whites aren't the ones usually dominating. Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting…

One of the demons hiding in this issue is the is/ought fallacy. People go from is to ought quite readily in these areas.

Let's say blacks really are on average better at basketball. Does it then follow that whites and asians ought not play basketball?

Nobody argues that because it's silly. (Or do they? I'm not in pro ball.)

People do argue that women should not be in tech. Women in tech regardless of ability get creeped on and treated like they don't know anything. I've met more than one with a fake male avatar on programming sites to ask questions, etc.

People are agitating for diversity in certain fields like tech, government, business, etc. because they are trying to reform fields with discriminatory cultures. If basketball had a culture that actively looked down on, excluded, and hazed whites then I would advocate doing something to challenge that.

I agree that trying to argue for a level of phenotypic equality that does not exist is a losing strategy but I get the motivation. I also have trouble thinking of another way to challenge these issues that doesn't involve taking a battering ram to a culture.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#112

What an incredibly intellectually lazy way of attempting to deconstruct that manifesto this is! > 1.I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect "This is wrong, I don't have to tell you why" is a pitiful statement in and of itself, and perhaps more importantly, is not an argument. The a…

as i wrote it elsewhere already regarding the original "manifesto": i am curious, if this person is ok with questioning their belief in "traits" that are defined on the level of sex. after all they are the one who says that "some ideas are too sacred to be discussed" and when i bring this up, i often find that the "differences" between the sexes are exactly one of these ideas. the reactions to this talk are a good ex…

Are you okay with people questioning your questioning of gender differences? Obviously there are differences. It is frustrating to continually have to explain how irrelevant they are to performance in 99.9% of business functions.

1. The cohesiveness of the organization is more important than any particular individual.

2. Men have greater variance in many skills than women do, so there are more men on the high end and low end of the talent spectrum.

3. On average we are the same, and there are enough humans around today that few of us exist in a zone with no significant overlap.

4. The genetic and developmental formation of men exposes us to greater mutation rates than women. The mutations that add the extra variance in talent can have chaotic and deleterious effects in other aspects (for instance diminished social awareness, autism, aggression).

5. Socially aware individuals are more likely to seek and form stronger teams. A talented individual has a high productivity relative to other individuals, but teams can multiply in ways individuals can't.

6. High individual talent can be abrasive and egotistical. Egos are toxic on teams and in business because they prevent you from seeing the wider picture. A wide perspective is vital to obtaining a competitive edge. Abrasion over time causes other team members to burn out, causing loss of intellectual capital and a bad brand in the talent market. (Not all talented individuals are abrasive).

7. Without a solid team you have no chance at accomplishing anything worthwhile.

8. Empathetic individuals keep the team emotionally secure and are able to design organizational structures that best leverage existing resources.

9. Organizational diversity has been shown to positively impact collective performance. Every new perspective is an edge over the competition, an insight into a new set of consumers.

10. Gender balances out in the end. We are all taking our own roads through life and each of us has a unique skill set that we are using to make ourselves happier in this weird imbalanced society. In a hierarchical organization, one can leverage their skills to obtain higher posts even if they are not exactly the same skills of their predecessors. It all contributes.

It's simple. The argument is pointless. The only reason I'm posting this is because Yonatan put himself on the front lines of this particular fight and he didn't have to. He's going to have to argue his point down to meaningless details to convince those absurdly stubborn people who refuse to get their heads out of the sand.

Yes, we are different. That's a good thing.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#113
post #19

Is there any other professional industry as politically divided and toxic as tech has become? Is there any other industry in which private companies shove their "values" down the throats of their employees in the manner we experience in tech?

Academia. Not an industry, but still a field of professional activity.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#114
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not than himself. Than men. You understand how Gaussian distributions work, yes?

You and I are not reading the same manifesto. This guy clearly thinks less of the women he works with. There is no way he sees his female co-workers as equal while publishing rubbish like this. And I doubt women engineers at Google would read that and feel very pleased about it. Yeah I understand Gaussian distributions. I also understand the emotional tone of the original manifesto and the discriminatory thinking beh…

>This guy clearly thinks less of the women he works with

Can you cite the part of the manifesto which made you reach this conclusion?

>I doubt women at Google would feel pleased about that

Why? I didn't see anything insulting or disrespectful in the article. Perhaps your mind filled in things not said?

For example: I openly admit that I suck at empathy. I am socially awkward, I have hard time relating to other people. I may have EDD.

Not only do I recognize that women are better at it I prefer female managers to male managers because all my female managers innately understood psychological safety. And fostered such culture.

Is it anecdotal? Yes. But it is consistent with the author's observations that we are different. It is consistent with the Big Five personality trait studies in psychology.

So I think shutting down this line of reasoning is effectively an attempt to block attempts at better understanding of what makes us different.

And yet if we actually understand each person's strengths AND weaknesses we will be able to build better organisations!

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#115
post #101

> (1) Despite speaking very authoritatively, the author does not appear to understand gender. > I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1) ... I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else. heh

Yeah, and somehow he knows it goes against nearly all research.

That manifesto is obviously inspired by recent rise in popularity of Jordan B Peterson. That guy is a very good psychologist.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#116

I'd seriously like to know if the author meant this literally: > a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face If that's indeed the case, isn't that on itself a huge problem we should deal with? If someone is risking being a victim of physical violence on the workplace over disagreements on political positions we should be seriously concerned.

This is not a disagreement on political positions, this is a belief that women are inherently less capable than men at software engineering. It's a direct attack on the legitimacy and humanity of his coworkers. A disagreement over political positions would be if the author wrote a manifesto about the efficacy of sin taxes or nuclear treaties, not that his teammate Sandra is biologically inferior at her job and undeserving of it.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's zero evidence that people are equal. Physically, everyone knows and admits this. Women are given separate physical contests as they are smaller, slower, and weaker than men. Certain races do better in some sports - no one can make a fuss, as it's obvious, plus whites aren't the ones usually dominating. Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting…

> Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting chemicals), somehow then we're all equally capable and the huge biases that exist when using other organs don't exist. And not only don't exist, but so obviously don't exist that anyone suggesting so is met with "I'm literally shaking". It's not "mental pursuits," it is that our society rewards men the most…

>No one is "lowering standards" for diverse hires.

Google fast-tracks diversity candidates simply because they are diversity candidates. Other candidates must reach a higher standard to be fast-tracked.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's zero evidence that people are equal. Physically, everyone knows and admits this. Women are given separate physical contests as they are smaller, slower, and weaker than men. Certain races do better in some sports - no one can make a fuss, as it's obvious, plus whites aren't the ones usually dominating. Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting…

> Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting chemicals), somehow then we're all equally capable and the huge biases that exist when using other organs don't exist. And not only don't exist, but so obviously don't exist that anyone suggesting so is met with "I'm literally shaking". It's not "mental pursuits," it is that our society rewards men the most…

>No one is "lowering standards" for diverse hires. No one. Why are you even implying this?

Without wading into the general content of the manifesto, I haven't had the time to read it, and while not directly regarding hiring, there is at least one good example where the quest for a more diverse pool has lead to differing standards being applied, namely university entrance. From the stats I've seen, Asians in the US are fairly strongly penalized with regards to the grades and test scores they need to achieve in order to gain entrance to top universities when compared to their White, African American, or Hispanic counterparts. It certainly seems to me that the standards have been lowered for non-Asians in this area, and while I make no claim of this also occurring in the hiring process, I also don't think it's an unfair question to ask seeing as it seems quite widespread in university admittance.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helping others succeed and building a diverse environment is not discriminating against men.

Having an agenda of hiring and promoting women over men is discriminating against men. Very few people dispute this happens.

No it is not discriminating against men. It is fighting existing discrimination against women. Women are already discriminated against in these fields, to try to stop that we have to encourage them to participate. Because it is Really Hard to join an industry or field where you are discriminated against.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's zero evidence that people are equal. Physically, everyone knows and admits this. Women are given separate physical contests as they are smaller, slower, and weaker than men. Certain races do better in some sports - no one can make a fuss, as it's obvious, plus whites aren't the ones usually dominating. Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting…

> Yet all of a sudden when it comes to mental pursuits (which are physically based in the brain and supporting chemicals), somehow then we're all equally capable and the huge biases that exist when using other organs don't exist. And not only don't exist, but so obviously don't exist that anyone suggesting so is met with "I'm literally shaking". It's not "mental pursuits," it is that our society rewards men the most…

The article isn't saying there is no discrimination though. It's just saying we shouldn't assume discrimination is the only factor we don't have 50% 50% representation in engineering. The author very much believes that we have cultural issues going on as well. This fact seems to be either misunderstood or deliberately ignored by a lot of people. But I can understand why.
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