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The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

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Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're not just multiplying those percentages, because that would imply that 0% of the non-voters would have voted for trump if that had voted. Point is, he got millions of people. One has to consider why. I think that the whole spectacle around political correctness and telling white people in lower social strata that they're inherently privileged resonated negatively with them and is one of the things that d…

I'm accurately citing the popular vote win count, the percentages and the turnout, none of which you did. Now if you think you somehow won a great victory, you didn't. And since from your writing it appears that you voted for Trump, yes, I and people like me think much less of you and people like you. If from the FA, this classifies as alienating conservatives then so be it. I should add that as each day goes by it l…

None of the exact numbers were relevant to my argument. I was only interested in the total amount of people voting for him. Which is millions. That's all that matters. Millions of people who felt uncomfortable and excluded and looked for the loudest and most visible outlet for their discomfort.

You only latched onto the very last sentence of my whole post upstream. Let me quote myself: Anyway, I do agree with the googler that the current overton window is heavily slanted to the point where quite a big fraction of the population feels uncomfortable and excluded, otherwise trump would never have gotten that much support. Do note that I never said he got a majority. "Much support" simply means a large absolute amount of people voting for him. Enough to not be easily dismissed.

> Now if you think you somehow won a great victory, you didn't.

I neither claimed nor implied that in any of my posts.

> And since from your writing it appears that you voted for Trump

Appearances can be deceiving.

> yes, I and people like me think much less of you and people like you.

That's the crux of "the culture wars".

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#382
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment. That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on > Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.

By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument basically proceeds as follows: 1) Gender differences exist 2) ??? 3) Differences in representation are explainable by gender differences The problem with the "???" step is that it's unrigorous handwaving. "Women prefer working with people." Okay, so that's why the majority of accountants are women? That's why STEM fields that don't involve people at all (math, biology) actually have quite a lot of women,…

I agree that "???" is unrigorous handwaving. And I don't think it purports to be rigorous; from the document: "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." (emphasis mine). "May" and "in part." I don't think this purports to be a proof. Is this argument any more rigorous? 1. There is a non-50% representation bet…

>However, if 100% of these pressures were removed, would we have exactly 50% representation of men and women in tech? Many people appear to believe very strongly that this is true. What is the basis for this belief?

We could have an even higher percentage of women, like we do in many top-notch classical outfits today. There is some history here I'm qualified to speak about as a woman who took many orchestral auditions in classical music. Most of decision makers in classical back in the day asked exactly what you are asking about tech right now. The results were stark. (see study below) My example is not intended to imply that tech is "the same" as classical music or anything--just pointing out a strong similarity in today's tech interviews to the gender/race-biased audition practices of orchestras in the pre-1970s, when it was believed that women/brown candidates were not as strong/accomplished/technically skilled/artistic/confident as their white European male colleagues. Here is a 1974 NYT article about "the change to screened auditions"; the reporter still felt comfortable calling Asian players "Oriental" at that time.

http://www.nytimes.com/1974/10/15/archives/orchestra-auditio...

The Met Orchestra is considered the overall "best orchestra" in the United States. It is a dream job in terms of pay and quality of music making. By best, I mean that winning a job at the met is like being a star player in the majors, more so than in any other orchestra. The Met's auditions are considered by classical players to be the most impartial, although they are still partial. They are the blindest, anyway, in terms of using a screen, if players can make it past the tape round. (that is another issue altogether for another time) Today, more than half of the NY Phil and 50% of the Met orchestra players are women, due to blinder audition practices. Still, most orchestras remove the screen after the first or second round today. (?) I believe the MET waits until the finals to remove the screen. (I didn't make it to the finals, but it is what I hear from players who have)

I believe that tech could learn a great deal from classical music's hiring practice innovations of the 1970s and 80s. Today, most US Orchestras are comprised of at least 50% women, up from none or just a couple in the 1970s. Today, St. Louis is majority female. If anyone in tech is interested, they could dig into this study published in The American Economic Review

http://www.academicroom.com/article/orchestrating-impartiali...

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on > Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.

By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"

I understand that part, but I don't understand how that sentence relates to the second:

"That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all."

If there's a missing "if" before the "it's" in his first sentence, I can only assume he means it takes effort to restrain oneself from being unfiltered, but there's an uncanny taste of an insult I can't pinpoint.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#386
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with the "???" step is that it's unrigorous handwaving. Probably because nobody actually knows right now what actually causes the differences and how. The case that is caused exclusively by entrenched sexism - somehow driven by people graduating from the same institutions who have been fighting sexism for decades now, and by the same people who repudiate and denounce sexism on every corner - also does n…

Read what Rayiner wrote more carefully. Computer science is unique among STEM fields --- even mathematics --- in its gender imbalance. The "???" here has a name: it's called "special pleading". It's not hard to see why people would get angry at a special pleading intended to excuse gender disparities.

No, it isn't unique among STEM fields in its gender imbalance. Engineering is more imbalanced.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#388
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All available evidence strongly suggests that Charles Murray is in fact a racist†, so this isn't a good example. What you instead want to say is that there's limited tolerance for the "diversity viewpoint" that "whites" and Asians are intellectually superior to "blacks". There's an intellectually coherent argument to be made that our society is intolerant towards inquiries supporting racism. (It's not a good argument…

I realize this is getting off topic, but can you explain why you think that, "All available evidence strongly suggests that Charles Murray is in fact a racist"? I've read The Bell Curve and listened to a debate where Murray argued in favor of universal basic income. I came away from both thinking that he's been totally misrepresented. I just reviewed my notes for The Bell Curve to make sure I hadn't mis-remembered th…

>"The first thing to remember is that the differences among individuals are far greater than the differences between groups."

All this means is that there is some degree of overlap between the two curves; that not every member of group A is more intelligent than every member of group B. Which is trivially true; even the most virulent racists would agree without hesitation that Clarence Thomas is more intelligent than a mentally disabled white person.

The height differences among Filipinos is greater than the difference in average height between Filipinos and the Dutch. Yet we can still say that on average Dutch people are taller than Filipinos, and understand that the underrepresentation of Filipinos in fields that select for height is not the result of societal oppression.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that "???" is unrigorous handwaving. And I don't think it purports to be rigorous; from the document: "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." (emphasis mine). "May" and "in part." I don't think this purports to be a proof. Is this argument any more rigorous? 1. There is a non-50% representation bet…

>However, if 100% of these pressures were removed, would we have exactly 50% representation of men and women in tech? Many people appear to believe very strongly that this is true. What is the basis for this belief? We could have an even higher percentage of women, like we do in many top-notch classical outfits today. There is some history here I'm qualified to speak about as a woman who took many orchestral audition…

I had come across that study/story before, and consider it one of the great successes in combating discrimination that I have ever heard!

Blinding the auditions is brilliant, because it isn't a "bias for bias" approach. It doesn't attempt to combat one bias by intentionally introducing another bias. It just removes the jury's ability to be biased, by concealing the musician's sex.

Because of this, the results of that study are nearly unimpeachable. It's basically a perfect approach. If tech could do anything comparable to that, I would be 100% in favor.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#390
post #328
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A small minority of people takes victim mentality and makes it near religious internal dogma. The rest just go along with it due to fat paychecks and the lack of desire to get fired for not being PC enough. As a current Googler I am surprised to hear this. I think most of the people I work with would agree that while it might be normal to think something like that, you should keep it to yourself.

You say you're surprised, and then confirm my opinion almost to the letter. Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well but I certainly did not intend to confirm your statement.

> Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it.

I meant people don't talk about it out of respect for their coworkers, not because they are afraid to get fired. I'm sure there are some who are just afraid to get fired, but I sincerely believe they're the minority.

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