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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

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Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#61
post #56

How can a journalist ever consider themselves to have self esteem in their work if they never read the primary documents that are central to the story? She writes: "Motherboard has not viewed the full document, but a screenshot we reviewed."... That's all! The article then follows is a kind of social media reaction recap. Possibly reactions by some people who also have not read the actual primary source, perhaps? (Ho…

Maybe if the journalist read the whole document, and made an honest story about it, we wouldn't be discussing it right now.

Journalism is entertainment, don't expect something more. If you want to be informed, do your own investigation, or read a book written by someone who knows the stuff.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#62
post #55
post #40

Ignoring or repressing that there are differences in women and men doesn't seam wise. However, there are a few important things to keep in mind about it. The difference is multivariate and some people may have some properties of the other gender. As a consequence, infering the capabilities of a person just from the gender written on the ID card is plain stupid. Another thing I want to say about this is that IT is a v…

> In France we have a similar issue with the porportion of black football players in the national team. People who complain about that don't understand that they just picked the best players. This gender debate is the same problem. I'd argue that it's not the same problem. I'm not French, but I doubt that there are calls to make the Football team more representative of the population by forcefully limiting the number…

Sorry, but you have to reconsider you doubt. Check this https://fdebranche.com/2016/03/29/racisme-ordinaire-un-soir-... This is now recurrent in France.

It is the same problem because the argument invoked is that the proportion of people of color should match the one of the french population. So the women proportion in context X or Y should match the one of the population. That argument would be valid if people were chosen randomly, but that's obviously not the case. So this argument is really bogus and falling for it is the real problem.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#63
post #55
post #40

Ignoring or repressing that there are differences in women and men doesn't seam wise. However, there are a few important things to keep in mind about it. The difference is multivariate and some people may have some properties of the other gender. As a consequence, infering the capabilities of a person just from the gender written on the ID card is plain stupid. Another thing I want to say about this is that IT is a v…

> In France we have a similar issue with the porportion of black football players in the national team. People who complain about that don't understand that they just picked the best players. This gender debate is the same problem. I'd argue that it's not the same problem. I'm not French, but I doubt that there are calls to make the Football team more representative of the population by forcefully limiting the number…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams of mainly men. Have you considered survival bias? The women that were bothered would have left those conditions in greater numbers. The problem in not caring about this statistical filtering is that it creates a blind spot for your company. It is harder to empathize with the unknown. When you build products that extend the world's social experience, this…

> When you build products that extend the world's social experience, this becomes a severe competitive danger. Sorry, but that is just bullshit. I'm currently making a tool to create RPGs. I'm the sole male developer. To my surprise, I have more women creating games in it than men. It seems that they really love the whole storytelling aspect of it. So to say that you can only build something that is only useful to pe…

> If you want to make something for your customers, listen to them

That is absolutely good advice. Note that I only said it was harder to empathize with the unknown.

However, an obvious result of the Two Generals' Problem is that you can only communicate through common knowledge. Getting it takes more work than having it.

For instance, it is likely that when you first built the tool, you made its UI use a language you understand. Let's say there is suddenly a large amount of interest in having that tool from a country with a language and culture you do not know.

Learning the specifics of that culture takes more work than having someone with that knowledge in your company. They may know what keyboard those people have, how they expect their right-to-left language to be input, how they react to specific UIs.

A company that has this knowledge in-house is more likely to get that market than one which relies on surveys. For companies that target a large number of markets with shifting needs, it makes diversity a business requirement to outpace competitors.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#65
I've read the doc. At first skim, I thought it was going to be a reasonable "stop the echochamber" style doc, that points out issues with over-loving diversity without thinking about the impact of it, and that decries the strong-left culture at Google that can be alienating to right-leaning employees.

But in reality, dude went full /r/TheRedPill and The_Donald on this. I think the best description I heard of the doc was 'right diagnosis, but overall lazy'. The doc called for reinforcement of stereotypes and removal of mandatory bias training. I can see how someone can see the surface and identify potential problems with it, but ultimately bias training is created by people with real credentials to be doing so -- psychologists, analysts, people who look at data and key results, both empirically and academically. To assume that a privileged engineer would know better than this hardworking team is pretty insulting, I think.

There have been some ridiculous, over the top reactions to the doc, but I think it was mostly a case of someone of privilege not understanding why diversity programs are in place and feeling empowered to shit on people without any because they scratched the surface of problems. Again, /r/TheRedPill style content.

It did spark discussion, and I think the consensus is that while there are some valid points about the left-leaning employee base, the overall doc fails to adequately dig into the matter, and does so in a hostile way while decrying anyone who disagreed with OP.

opinions my own.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#66

Google is substantially located in the Bay Area. Of course they hate ideological diversity, in practice if not in principle. It is an attitude common in their workforce. This is a tendentious statement, so I will relate my own experience. Once upon a time I was working in California, at a tiny startup, and was reading some election results from "back home" in North Carolina, which had just passed Amendment One by abo…

>from what I hear and understand of the matter, this guy is factually in error, probably sexist, and almost certainly undermining his cause.

That's my take too, having read the doc. Reminds me of The_Donald -- sometimes correctly identifies an issue, but misses the point entirely on so many levels and does more harm than good to whatever the author's goal was.

>you don't un-people people

And that's exactly how the doc started from the get-go. It decried anyone who dared disagree with it as shunning communication. That's really not the case -- people discussed it, and disagreed with it. It reminds me of those religious freedom laws, that guarantee people's freedom to discriminate to protect their own beliefs. The more layers you follow down, the more of a contradiction the laws become.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be an issue. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "best". If "best" means "like me", you're at risk of creating a monoculture. Personally, I think that we should stop looking for "the best" at all times and enormously rewarding them, because this is creating a lot of disparity, and maybe "the best" sometimes carry with them some large drawback (possibly "the best" engineer spends 10 hour working, and 6…

Do you have any data that suggests that monoculture is bad? My anecdotal evidence suggests that monocultures are the most efficient and effective teams. An important note here is that culture != skin color. Being from the same culture expedites a lot of communication and results in easier/greater team cohesiveness. A study recently came out about diversity in communities (not workplaces). Diversity and civic engageme…

Yup and newer results debate Putnam's assertion. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01419870.2013.831...

Basically the only real assertion that could be made is that Americans are more scared of diversity than other countries.

As to monocultures being bad, if we are looking at the rest of nature, then it's bad in the sense that it leaves massive vulnerabilities to being wiped out in one go. For example the potato blight, black death, bananas and so on, which arguably isn't the same thing as culture is far more adaptable. No one says monocultures are bad, they say they are risky. The reason everyone loves McDonalds french fries is because they are the same anywhere you get them, but if that particular potato has a bad year everyone will notice.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#68

Google is substantially located in the Bay Area. Of course they hate ideological diversity, in practice if not in principle. It is an attitude common in their workforce. This is a tendentious statement, so I will relate my own experience. Once upon a time I was working in California, at a tiny startup, and was reading some election results from "back home" in North Carolina, which had just passed Amendment One by abo…

you don't un-people people.

But without trying to devolve into the actual politics of it, a large portion of Americans (I'd wager it's the majority) believe that it's okay to exclude people for one reason or another. Americans have voted since Pres. GW Bush on protectionist principles, even President Obama was barely for extending rights until he was forced into it by VP Biden. America is in the middle of a massive demographic shift from the Baby Boomers who have ruined the economy, created massive public debt, destroyed worker protections, and shifted the political power from those in the middle to those at the very top. They did this by unpeopling people. This was an intentional thing done by the religious right starting in the late 70s and really gaining steam in the 80s. Their brand of us vs them found a receptive audience in America, because the Baby Boomers are afraid that what they've created will change, and for the moment there's more of them than other voting populations. Of course this is the natural outcome. Look at how many centrist politicians have left. So yes I personally disagree with what this guy said, but in a public sphere he has every right to say it. Inside of Google however they have the right to fire him for any reason, because there are no worker protections for free speech.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#69
post #49

> "If HR does nothing in this case, I will consider leaving this company for real for the first time in five years," she wrote in a threaded tweet. Maybe I'm missing something but since when did HR become the Thought Police? Do people actually believe that if you intimidate someone into silence they will stop having these thoughts? Last I checked the psychological research in this area suggested that people rebelled…

Since forever? The job of HR is the protect the company. If a single employee is causing a problem that impacts work through the majority of the company they will find a way to remove the problem. There's a reason politics is generally discouraged at work. We're generally all guilty of it, but it leads to problems in unit cohesion. The military tends to handle this well with the whole "you'll think what the branch wants you to think" mentality because you literally cannot have infighting on the line. It also tends to make you a lot more tolerant of people when you're depending on them to watch your back.
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