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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

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Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#31

Why does US have these diversity problems? Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? Is it such a huge deal that you have to work with a few women? Is it such a huge deal that as a technical woman, you have to work mostly with men? I can tell you, in Belgium, in my experience and what I hear, this is not an issue whatsoever. Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams o…

This is mainly because academia - the humanities primarily - in the US has been infiltrated by postmodernists and cultural marxists and colleges pump out social justice warriors like crazy nowadays.

After it became obvious that the classic marxist idea of proletariat and bourgeoisie and the practical implementation of ideologies based on this idea led to some of the worst crimes on humanity, marxist academics replaced the whole thing with oppressed and oppressor, which has now become the basis for the ideology these SJWs operate on today. Everyone who belongs to a group that does well for themselves is now an oppressor, while the people belonging to groups that do badly are the oppressed. That's why White people, Asians and Jews (who usally count as White) are the oppressors who need to be diversified to ensure social justice, while women, "Minorities", LGBTQI+ people etc. are the oppressed "diversity". Skill and abilities take a backseat.

Of course these SJW bullies find an easy footing in software development, a discipline that is not exactly known for being pursued by the most assertive and confident males (or women for that matter).

In Europe the problem isn't quite as bad yet, though here in Germany it's getting worse with increasingly more university activites relating to feminism, diversity, history revisionism through marxist lenses etc. popping up. But since (at least in Germany) we don't have the admixture of humanities and STEM many US colleges and universities have, this stuff is mostly contained within the social sciences so far.

The Twitter feeds of some of the people linked in this article read like a Conservative's caricature of an SJW btw.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#32
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the "unpopular opinion" is euphemism for "dude assumes I am less competent without even knowing me" then being "really open" is indistinguishable from being one massive doormat.

We can't know that if we don't read the full document. I think you're jumping to conclusions without assessing facts first; that's exactly the issue I'm talking about. As soon as somebody says something about "politically correct" practices, he must fear retaliation. Maybe he/she is saying that such diversity practices don't work as intended, and that diversity should be achieved in a different way. Maybe he/she is s…

I am not jumping to anything. I am answering your general point with another general point.

I did not addressed specific point you raised "is the author jerk", because I find his jerk-status irrelevant. There are plenty of charizmatic sexists and plenty of jerks that are not sexist.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#33
Obligatory bit from Greg Wilson's "What We Actually Know About Software Development, and Why We Believe It's True".

https://vimeo.com/9270320#t=1525s

And the book recommendation: "Why Aren't More Women in Science?: Top Researchers Debate the Evidence". (researchers from either side of the arguments debate each other in the same book.)

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, if the data supported his claims, I wonder what Googlers would have to say. If Google wants the best, what is it willing to risk? Personally I think for most companies you're better off with a diverse crowd regardless, lest you end up with a bunch of out of touch yuppie guys trying to "change the world" by building an IOT coffee machine. That is to say, all types of diversity be it race, socioeconom…

That may be an issue. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "best". If "best" means "like me", you're at risk of creating a monoculture. Personally, I think that we should stop looking for "the best" at all times and enormously rewarding them, because this is creating a lot of disparity, and maybe "the best" sometimes carry with them some large drawback (possibly "the best" engineer spends 10 hour working, and 6…

Do you have any data that suggests that monoculture is bad? My anecdotal evidence suggests that monocultures are the most efficient and effective teams. An important note here is that culture != skin color. Being from the same culture expedites a lot of communication and results in easier/greater team cohesiveness.

A study recently came out about diversity in communities (not workplaces). Diversity and civic engagement are inversely related. The more diverse a neighborhood fewer people vote, fewer people volunteer, they give less to charity, etc. I can't imagine there aren't similar impacts in the workplace.

http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/...

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#35

Google is substantially located in the Bay Area. Of course they hate ideological diversity, in practice if not in principle. It is an attitude common in their workforce. This is a tendentious statement, so I will relate my own experience. Once upon a time I was working in California, at a tiny startup, and was reading some election results from "back home" in North Carolina, which had just passed Amendment One by abo…

> "wow, 60% of North Carolina is literally horrible, terrible people."

The worst thing here is the suggestion that there was 100% turnout, instead it was closer to 30%, so only about 20% voted for it. The amendment was found unconstitutional a short time afterwards anyway, finding that marriage is a fundamental right for everyone.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#36

Why does US have these diversity problems? Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? Is it such a huge deal that you have to work with a few women? Is it such a huge deal that as a technical woman, you have to work mostly with men? I can tell you, in Belgium, in my experience and what I hear, this is not an issue whatsoever. Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams o…

> I just want to work with people that I like and who can handle the job.

As do other people. People just want to do work in an industry they want to work in with people they want to work with and don't want people to use use their gender, sex, racial or cultural background to prevent them doing it.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#37
This manifesto may or may not have a valid point, without seeing the contents we will likely never truly know. Apologies for the lengthy post to follow.

Let me start by saying that diversity is always important. Without diversity you tend to end up with an echo chamber that produces things that are only worthwhile for the subset of people represented within the group.

However, it is important to think about the cost that diversity targets can have on both the under-represented and over-represented groups within a company. Diversity targets for hiring or promotion will mean the over-represented group(s) will tend to view those who are hired or promoted with disdain. Meanwhile the under-represented group(s) may well doubt their position within the company, worrying that they are in their position only due to belonging to the flavour of the month diversity target. The other part is that members of the under-represented group who were previously employed on their own merits are likely to hold a similar position to that of the majority group(s), for similar reasons.

Now it's time for an anecdote... My girlfriend works as an engineer in an oil and gas company. Her company is fully on board with the current gender diversity push, and has created several new positions at a fairly high level specifically to meet their diversity targets. These are high level positions with no one reporting to them in the current structure (which was defined by the massive restructure following the fall in oil prices). Her issues with the positions and their seniority boils down to education and time in the industry. If they were being filled by candidates based on skill, a large proportion of them would be male (and probably white). This would be because the vast majority of the people with the relevant experience are white males. By pushing the female agenda, she fears that not only will these roles be filled by poor candidates, it will also promote the stereotype that women are unsuitable for the job.

There is room for diversity targets, but they must be mindful of the talent pool available for the specific job. Whilst it hurts at this point, the most reasonable course is to promote equality in education. If your company is hiring on skill, then the equality issues will resolve in time, without making anyone resentful of the first year grad who got promoted to team leader because the company needed to meet a quota.

To derail myself slightly following the above wall of text. Would the current white, male disgruntlement be as bad had there not been the GFC etc, and the subsequent (and continuing layoffs/stagnation of wages?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#39

Why does US have these diversity problems? Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? Is it such a huge deal that you have to work with a few women? Is it such a huge deal that as a technical woman, you have to work mostly with men? I can tell you, in Belgium, in my experience and what I hear, this is not an issue whatsoever. Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams o…

Eh-- work in tech in Norway and our female engineers definitely feel outnumbered and sometimes avoid outings unless another woman will be there. That's in egalitarian Scandinavia.

Norway is 97% white people, 95% of Norwegian descent. It's hard to say a country is egalitarian if it doesn't really have any diversity.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#40
Ignoring or repressing that there are differences in women and men doesn't seam wise. However, there are a few important things to keep in mind about it. The difference is multivariate and some people may have some properties of the other gender. As a consequence, infering the capabilities of a person just from the gender written on the ID card is plain stupid. Another thing I want to say about this is that IT is a vast domain requiring various competences. Each gender has some properties that make it more fit for some of these competences. So in practice there is room for everybody.

The conclusion is to get the right person for the job. The gender shouldn't be considered because the reality is not black and white.

Base on this reasoning, complains about imbalance of gender quota or salaries are not acceptable. The salary is/should be attached to the job and performance, not the gender.

In France we have a similar issue with the porportion of black football players in the national team. People who complain about that don't understand that they just picked the best players. This gender debate is the same problem.

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