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Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

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Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#141

Post by DuskStar »

chronic8k wrote: post #125
mjw1007 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one thing that might happen. Another is that he might plead guilty and we'll never know whether he was guilty or innocent (but threatened with consequences he didn't feel he could risk).

Which of the two outcomes do you prefer to happen: 1. True malware creator and seller is sent to prison. 2. True malware creator and seller is not sent to prison. Whether he pleads guilty or not has nothing to do with him being a security researcher. I'd much rather have more false positives than false negatives. You, and the rest of Europe, would too.

Um. I would much rather have false negatives than false positives in criminal cases, thanks.

"it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"

Also, you've got this wonderful dichotomy laid out, but there are other options too: for instance, that this guy is sent to prison but was not the creator of the malware, thus ending any chance of the true creator ever being caught.

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#142

Post by Natsu »

natch wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hutchins is accused of creating the Kronos trojan, and of working closely with someone who sold the trojan. The lines the DOJ is saying were crossed are pretty bright.

It bears mentioning that accused does not mean convicted. The DOJ record as far as accusations turning out to be grounded in reality is not unblemished. >Hutchins is accused of creating the Kronos trojan, and of working closely with someone who sold the trojan. The lines the DOJ is saying were crossed are pretty bright. You say that as though you are contradicting NateJay. But the fear NateJay is highlighting is exac…

That's fair, it's always best to let the facts come out in court before any of us decide to judge him one way or another. By then we'll have a clearer picture of exactly what (if anything) his knowledge of and involvement with the principles of the crimes was.

It seems to me that, if proven, the DOJ has a case here. They key point will be exactly what they can or cannot prove in court.

It's best not to get too riled up over preliminary things like this. We haven't heard most of what there is to hear until the closing arguments are given and I'd rather not make up my mind too far one way or another before I've heard everything there is to know. And I would be embarrassed to stake an opinion later proven ridiculous because I rushed to judgement.

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#143

Post by arca_vorago »

manarth wrote: post #41
watty wrote: post #17

I've read a few articles but I feel like I'm missing something. What's with the sensational quotes like "I had folks afraid that their own involvement in investigating WannaCry would get them arrested."? Everything I've read points that he created banking Malware "Kronos" which was sold on various "underground forums" (whatever that means). What's with the WannaCry conspiracies? He wasn't arrested for being a securit…

There's a tweet dating back to 2014 [1] where he asks for a sample of Kronos. A number of people have pointed out that would be taking the extremely ridiculously long game for an alibi - why would the author ask for a copy of his own code? There's also little/no published information to back up the statement that he ever sold Kronos. [1] https://twitter.com/MalwareTechBlog/status/48837379416825446...

My personal opinion, until shown evidence otherwise, is this is the real author/seller being turned into an informant, and part of that process, the first step, is to protect the informant and smear another. MTB's high profile on the issue may mean he was a target of opportunity.

Of course I could be wrong, so time will tell. A good future indicator of this will be if the case is dropped as quietly as possible.

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#144

Post by am1988 »

natch wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hutchins is accused of creating the Kronos trojan, and of working closely with someone who sold the trojan. The lines the DOJ is saying were crossed are pretty bright.

It bears mentioning that accused does not mean convicted. The DOJ record as far as accusations turning out to be grounded in reality is not unblemished. >Hutchins is accused of creating the Kronos trojan, and of working closely with someone who sold the trojan. The lines the DOJ is saying were crossed are pretty bright. You say that as though you are contradicting NateJay. But the fear NateJay is highlighting is exac…

That's absolutely true, but if the DoJ is acting in good faith (they believe they have sufficient evidence of guilt by this person) then is this really a problem?

There are good reasons to be cautious, but this particular case is far from decided either way.

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#145

Post by [deleted] »

chasil wrote: post #3

Realistically, DEF CON should move to the Caribbean. Marcus Hutchins is a British citizen. Extradition before the event was feasible and would have been a far more honorable path than the snatch and grab that transpired. British security experts might insist on Grand Cayman for any further conferences in the Americas.

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#146

Post by travmatt »

tptacek wrote: post #134
uyhso8 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone would disagree with what you just said, but given the way prosecutors deal with "intent" sometimes, I think it would be easy for them to cross a line. If you haven't already, listen to this podcast about Doug Williams and polygraphs: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/618/... There's a lot of parallels and how issues of intent can get very grey.

They're required to prove intent at trial.

As I understand it this is the crux of the case - that the creation of such software isn't illegal, but sale with the intent to be used in the commission of a crime is. I understand the indictment is pretty barebones, so I wonder what exactly they are basing their allegations of intent on.

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#147

Post by [deleted] »

chronic8k wrote: post #125
mjw1007 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one thing that might happen. Another is that he might plead guilty and we'll never know whether he was guilty or innocent (but threatened with consequences he didn't feel he could risk).

Which of the two outcomes do you prefer to happen: 1. True malware creator and seller is sent to prison. 2. True malware creator and seller is not sent to prison. Whether he pleads guilty or not has nothing to do with him being a security researcher. I'd much rather have more false positives than false negatives. You, and the rest of Europe, would too.

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#148

Post by dsacco »

tptacek wrote: post #118
pw wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I take it you're not a fan of Vegas?

I have friends who live there and don't want to talk shit about the real city of Las Vegas where people actually live, but the part of Las Vegas that Black Hat and Defcon drag us to every year is probably the worst place in the country.

Piggybacking on this to +1 the sentiment as another "security person": I literally do not go to Black Hat or Defcon because I don't like Vegas.

It's a minor networking hit for me, but a total win otherwise (and I can make up by networking elsewhere - I cannot get time spent in Vegas back).

Re: Arrest of WannaCry researcher sends chill through security community

#150

Post by 21 »

saalweachter wrote: post #108
thehardsphere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, it would not be remarkable. Prosecutors have a responsibility to only pursue cases that are likely to result in conviction. If extradition was considered impossible, then there would not be much point in pursing an indictment.

I honestly assume that there's a "list of foreigners we'd like to prosecute" that the US gov't checks visa applications against.

What if it's like this: Hey FBI, this guy on your list wants a visa. Should we give him one?
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