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Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

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351–360 of 433 posts

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#351
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No "Hate Speech" is not a form of assault, nor should it be treated as such Further the entire concept of "hate Speech" is rife for abuse and is antithesis of Free Speech. How do you objectively define "Hate Speech", do you trust government to define this, that is a scary thought if you do...

"Government" in this context is not some well-defined cohesive autocratic whole. The liberal democratic nations have separation of powers: legislature, courts, law enforcement, civil society. Through these institutions we attempt to develop laws, regulations, and codes of conduct, that attempt to define acceptable behaviour, rights and responsibilities, protections, and punishments. This is all in a constant state of…

>>Through these institutions we attempt to develop laws, regulations, and codes of conduct, that attempt to define acceptable behaviour, rights and responsibilities, protections, and punishments.

This is where I disagree. I am proponent of Lockean natural or self evident rights. Government's sole purpose it is protect my individual rights that I have simply because I exist. These rights are an extension of my Self Agency or Self Ownership.

Government is not to define what is "accptable behaviour" or to define what my rights are, or what codes of conduct is to be.

Law should simply be the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. This common force is to only protect persons, liberty and property.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "getting it right" in free speech. Either you allow free speech or you don't, if you are keeping one controversial thing but kick out the other you gave up on free speech. You can't kick someone out because you think its right and claim allowing free spech.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

It's not even a US-centric view of speech; it's just absolutist internet nonsense. The US, like other countries, has a very complex set of case laws that govern speech. Though hate speech is basically protected, incitement is illegal. Doxing in and of itself is not usually illegal, but on the Internet doxing is usually done as a part of some scheme to blackmail, threaten, or harass someone, all of which are criminal. US speech laws are less restrictive than the laws in many European countries, but to paint them as just some sort of carte-blanche is not correct.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#353
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well fine, sue them for false advertising. Or if that's untenable than let's get a law passed that says if a business claims, as part of its marketing, to support a right then they have a legal obligation to civilly enforce said right at their place(s) of business. I'd be on board with that. As for the rest, it would appear I'm thinking more from an (American) legal perspective and the implications of various measure…

>As for the rest, it would appear I'm thinking more from an (American) legal perspective and the implications of various measures that might be taken, No you are seeing me state that is a violation of Freedom of Speech and jump the erroneous conclusion that I desire some kind of law, or legal penalty for that violation. I do not. I merely want to people recognize that it is infact a violation of the concept and stop…

It seems like you're claiming the success of Patreon is due to its support of the concept of "Free Speech", and by not allowing certain groups to use their website as a platform to spread their message (for example, hate speech), they're in violation of their founding principles.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it up to them who they want to do business with? What is the obligation this non-governmental entity has to act as host?

In a sense, wouldn't forcing Patreon to be open to all (again including groups with a message of hate and inciting violence) be a violation of their rights?

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a patreon specifically made for open source or coding projects?

You can use Patreon for that. Evan You has one to fund development of Vue.js https://www.patreon.com/evanyou

Another successful open source coding Patreon is OctoPrint: https://www.patreon.com/foosel

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#356

Unless I'm missing something, they seem to only have a monthly contribution model. There are many times where I find a content creator helpful (for example a video tutorial on how to fix my broken washing machine), and I'd like to reward them. But I don't want to do it monthly, as I'll probably never watch another thing from them. So I'd like to be able to easily leave a one-time tip. Can Patreon do this, and it's ju…

Patreon has the concept of donation per creation rather than per month, which works well for people who produce things less regularly. It works pretty well for the ones I follow, but I guess it could be open to abuse if someone churned out a lot of stuff quickly (although I'd bet they'd lose a load of subscribers if they did that...)

One of the two Patreons I support (https://www.patreon.com/mitchbenn), who is working on a pay-per-thing model, decided to start doing very short daily videos as well as occasional longer ones. All he does is mark one short video a week as a 'thing', with the others basically being freebies. That, combined with the ability to set a monthly limit as a supporter, keeps things sane...

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#357
post #212

How long before Youtube bans private videos and destroys Pateron's business?

Probably not happening, since private and unlisted videos have plenty of non Patreon uses as well.

For example, some people use unlisted videos in thei Ycombinator or startup accelerator applications. Or on pages on their own sites where the video merely compliments the content and is useless on its own.

Removing that sort of thing seems illogical.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#358
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/search and rescue vessels/people smuggling vessels

Sure, assuming Doctors Without Borders is in the people smuggling business now, it is still a seaworthy vessel instead of a makeshift raft, the kind that is responsible for that drowned toddler washing up on European shores which is specifically used as an example of the possible harm that would be in breach of the company's content policy.

Picking up people 20 miles off of Libya's coast and bringing them to Italy instead of to the much (!) closer African shore is not exactly "search & rescue".

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-rescue-ita...

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#359
I'm https://www.patreon.com/airwindows and I'm writing audio DSP plugins in AU and VST form, for a living. Here are my observations over the past year of relative success on Patreon.

I'm in the top 3.2% of all Patreon, sitewide. That amounts to only a little over $700 a month (I'm using it to replace a for-pay business model that wildly oscillated from $400 to $3000 a month). It's growing.

I'm having to put out twice or three times the work, but I'm happier with a 'free/patronage' model because what was happening to me under the for-pay model was, I got locked into a 'hype cycle' versus other developers and companies. The sense I had was, my industry sector is dying. The way we treat customers is worsening, and it's a race to DRM-based, extremely invasive monthly software rental and a degree of dishonesty that didn't sit well with me. I feel that I bailed 'in time' to turn my ten years of reputation and experience into just-barely a subsistence using Patreon, and that if I hadn't done so, I would have been run out of business by competitors using every sort of deceptive and customer-abusing practice, and the epitaph would've been 'A shame, he was one of the good ones. Tough business'.

As such I feel I have a real-world view of what Patreon actually is. It's a form of payment processor that can let you bill for basically 'goodwill': the strong point is, it lets you render your income more predictable, at the cost of not being able to exploit individual creations which might be more valuable.

Never, NEVER get sucked into the 'just 0.1% of all living humans donating one cent a month will make you rich!' argument. If you have a hundred thousand known fans, MAYBE you can get a hundredth of them to give to you. You've got no control over what 'the crowd' will do. I don't know how many times I've revealed on HN that I'm creating mass quantities of code with an open-source (planned MIT license) future, on Patreon, and of the 347 patrons I've got, ALL of them are from my existing connections who already use my software. I'm looking to do an experiment with Facebook ads where I literally link to my entire library as a free zip to download and say 'I'm paying Facebook to tell you that I made this for you'. Haven't done it yet, don't have high hopes for it.

ALL your traction on Patreon comes organically from what you're already doing. In no way does it find you patrons: it's your shopping cart software. That does have one unusual consequence: since they aggregate patronage together and bill people in a lump sum, I've never seen anything more effective at enabling content that is routinely censored by credit card companies. Anyone who knows anyone who's tried to run an internet content business with NSFW material as part of the mix (I know a bunch of cartoonists) knows the dangers of getting banned by Visa and Mastercard (IIRC, particularly Visa won't touch you if you're dirty-minded). Patreon is a layer of abstraction that has enabled a startling opening up of opportunity for censored content, and that's shown in the NSFW side of Patreon. It's still not a 'free ticket to money' as you still have to generate your own attention, but obviously if you're good at NSFW content and distributing it free then the internet will beat a path to your door, and Patreon is accepted (in fact, the paywall model seems popular among NSFW creators with few objections to the idea. Premium content may not last long before being 'liberated' but I rarely see objection to the basic concept of a paywall around the freshest source of the creator's output).

I've been keeping records of what constitutes the top 1% of all Patreon, because I was keeping records of where I stood (started out at top 10% almost immediately because I had ten years of existing relationships w. customers). About a year ago, the 1% mark sat at around $2350 a month, with total creators between 41,000 and 45,000. It's been dropping, and as Patreon approaches 78,000 creators the 1% mark is dropping below $1890. This is while key patreon accounts are hitting new records for monthly income. It's definitely the internet power-law thing in action: the number of participants doubles, but most people are doing worse: the distribution is NOT staying the same, it's getting more skewed towards the outliers. I'm guessing this is partly caused by a flood of people who think it's an internet lottery ticket and not a way to bill masses of existing customers…

Summary: Patreon is probably even less prone to 'discovery of worthwhile projects' than Kickstarter, because the mode of engagement is different: rather than seek out 'discoveries' it's a method of inserting benevolent digital leeches onto people's credit cards, very much like DRM-based rental schemes but less coercive. Because it can be used in a 'strictly voluntary' way, the revenue you'll get seems to be a quarter to a tenth what you'd get on a 'direct sales' model, but the consistency of a massed small-donation model combined with billing people's credit cards gives you a steadiness of income that is a LOT more easy to live with than boom-and-bust product development (which I did for a decade, pre-Patreon).

If you can budget for a growth month-over-month that's a little better than, say, the growth of index funds, and you've got created product with a decent number of people already aware of what you do, it's great. I have no regrets about going Patreon. I passed up an opportunity to do my whole 'for-pay' model over again to a market at least twice the size of my original (my whole decade of for-pay work was Mac only, and I relaunched targeting PC VST) but I'm glad I did. It let me double down on my positioning as a product maker, and completely avoid spending any time on being an internet cop. I just give everything away now, and the patronage gradually gets closer to minimum wage ;)

For now, I am your audio DSP waitress, on roller-skates. I always figured that was what ten years of creative work was worth ;)

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

It's a very libertarian (puerile) view of free speech. The rest of us understand principles like civility, that your rights stop where mine begin, don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, balancing rights and responsibilities, and that hatespeech is a form of assault.

> don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater

I personally love this analogy because it makes it so much easier to identify when someone is unfamiliar with how US 1st amendment law works.

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