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How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

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81–90 of 107 posts

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#81
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The totality of the colour blue is the sum of all of the integrals from one meta-point to another meta-point, formed in to spherical husk that can be opened by neither being within or without. Even though those words are all well-established with their meaning, they are nonsense when strung together. That's true. And if you can find me a sentence from Derrida that is similarly nonsense, I'll tip my cap to you. Honest…

That seems like a fun game, though I don't have any opinions on Continental Philosophy. I don't speak French well enough to do it in the original, so I'll have to try in translation: "And even if one wished to keep sonority on the side of the sensible and contingent signifier which would be strictly speaking impossible, since formal identities isolated within a sensible mass are already idealities that are not purely…

That's not a terribly felicitous translation, but it is by no means impenetrable. Of course, we can't take that sentence in isolation-- it is the middle sentence of a short paragraph, so you need to read a bit of context, too.

The paragraph also presumes that you are familiar with the opposition (familiar since Kant, at least) between the sensible and the intelligible, and Saussure's division of the sign into a signifier (which is supposed to be sensible) and a signified (which is the intelligible portion of the sign, not the thing referred to.)

Now, if you have that context, and understand the background, the paragraph is perfectly understandable.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#82
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as one who actually understands it, I don't know what makes you think you are qualified to claim otherwise. I don't understand a lot of high-level physics, but that doesn't lead me to imagine that physicists just sit around bullshitting each other all day.

There is an easy test to see if a subject has inherent meaning or not. Just submit a randomly constructed article to the related journal and see if they publish it. PS: Guess which side won?

Not the side you think.

Sokal punked a minor journal that was not particularly well known in the field. His book with Bricmont, attacking "postmodernism", on the other hand, was published by a major publisher, even though large swaths of it had been thoroughly debunked.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could explain deconstruction to an interested party, and I imagine I could do so in slightly less time than it would take to explain Perelman's proof of the Poincare Conjecture to McCartney. If the interested party is already well read in the philosophical works of Husserl, Heidegger, Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud and Levinas, I could probably do it in a weekend.

Ooh, that would be interesting. Let's start with the first: what is the point of deconstruction? (Or as Chomsky argues - why is deconstruction necessary when the conclusions it reaches can be simply divined by ordinary laypersons, without all the verbosity and the pretentiousness of language?)

Let's not, actually.

Let's start with you reading (and demonstrating to me a core competence of) the basic texts of philosophy leading up to deconstruction-- in this case, that would be Husserl, Heidegger, Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud and Levinas.

When you have those six down, I'd be happy to explain deconstruction to you.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#84
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comprehensible to whom? Masters of continental philosophy have no problem rendering their fields comprehensible to, say, graduate students in the field. Some (easier) texts are comprehensible to undergrads. Any "lack of an internal structure, consistency, truth" is imagined by Chomsky. Really.

Incidentally, Chomsky is a linguist. His primary field is understanding language, for example the effect of context on a word like "drug."

Which is why there is no doubt in my mind that Chomsky could read (and appreciate) "Plato's Pharmacy", if he so desired. The fact that he claims that he can't indicates to me that he's being disingenuous, or hasn't bothered to find out which works of Derrida's are relevant to his field.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Paul McCartney said that someone should explain Perelman's proof of the Poincare Conjecture to him, and that if they couldn't, it meant that it was bunk. Sure, it's possible that Chomsky hasn't taken the time to truly understand Continental Philosophy or lacks the technical training to understand it even if someone were to explain it all to him. But it's also possible that continental philosophy is just profound…

As someone who has actually studies Continental Philosophy, I can tell you that it's not nonsense. Your "looks like a duck, walks like a duck" test would just as easily apply to nuclear physics or non-Euclidean geometry, if you are not already familiar with the terms of art of those fields. And the pressure for greater clarity and simpler exposition is admirable, so far as it goes-- but (as many mathematics texts dem…

Nuclear physics and non-Euclidean geometry can justify their usefulness through results. The fact that only a few people understand them does not prevent their usefulness.

The usefulness of Continental Philosophy could consist in insight into moral, political, and social problems, but providing insight to a few specialists is not much use in those fields, especially not in democratic societies. Looking back on the history of moral and social change in the United States, I don't see such philosophies playing a major role. The thinkers who have made a difference have written for a general audience and in a much more accessible style. (Karl Marx and Das Kapital would seem to be an exception, but he and his evangelists wrote plenty of accessible interpretations of his ideas. The Communist Manifesto, for example, is a brief, readable, and rousing document.) If Continental Philosophers want to justify their existence, they should point to some benefit that their work enables, instead of just complaining that nobody understands it.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Paul McCartney said that someone should explain Perelman's proof of the Poincare Conjecture to him, and that if they couldn't, it meant that it was bunk. Sure, it's possible that Chomsky hasn't taken the time to truly understand Continental Philosophy or lacks the technical training to understand it even if someone were to explain it all to him. But it's also possible that continental philosophy is just profound…

As someone who has actually studies Continental Philosophy, I can tell you that it's not nonsense. Your "looks like a duck, walks like a duck" test would just as easily apply to nuclear physics or non-Euclidean geometry, if you are not already familiar with the terms of art of those fields. And the pressure for greater clarity and simpler exposition is admirable, so far as it goes-- but (as many mathematics texts dem…

His point still stands though. In most fields, no matter how complex, it is possible to generalize and explain things at a fairly superficial level, in terms a layman would understand.

-"In physics, a particle can have different properties at once!"

-"Some people think that the language you speak defines what you can think! There's even languages without numbers, and those people have trouble counting!"

-"There are political philosophies that say everybody should share in everything equally, and others where only the people who work the hardest should get the most stuff!"

-"If you eat more calories than you spend, you'll get fat!"

-"If too many people try to use the same wireless signal at once, it'll get jammed up and won't work right."

And this type of thing seems to hold true for most disciplines. It's possible to get similar layman explanations for just about anything except for, as he's pointing out certain brands of philosophy.

Since we know that a person cannot learn a complex topic at its most complex, they must take simpler stepping stones in a subject till they can achieve comprehension at a high level this implies a couple possibilities:

1) People in this field have worked up through these stepping stones, and by building on various axioms and following certain lines of reasoning, it's possible to achieve a level of comprehension that is based on reducible and explainable models of thinking.

2) There are no stepping stones and it's complex word gibberish without particular meaning. To get "in" to the field, you must master the phrases, secret handshakes and passcodes, to learn the common language of the field, so that you can appear for all purposes as one of the group. It'd be similar to learning a particular dialect of street slang and customs so that you can fit in to a particular neighborhood and not be identified as an immediate outsider. Of course even in that case, words, phrases, actions, customs are all reducible and explainable in simple, general, layman terms ("you wear big clothes and stand and walk like this to thwart the ability of an observer, say the police, in determining if you are carrying a weapon", "you say 'jigga-g' when talking about the leader of the gang", "you spray tags as markings to indicate territory to other gangs").

If 1 is true, then Chomsky should be able to find somebody, anybody, who could do a passable job at explaining this topic in general layman terms such as is possible in every other field. Perhaps he's not really trying very hard, or perhaps the people who inhabit this discipline are particularly intransigent to formulating an articulation of their field for layman without using the domain vocabulary specific to it?

There's a growing consensus external to the field, however, that 2 is true. It would actually be rather simple for the practitioners of this field to counter this sentiment, simply provide a layman's explanation of the topic. But since that seems to be something that nobody can do, and statements like "And the pressure for greater clarity and simpler exposition is admirable, so far as it goes-- but (as many mathematics texts demonstrate) notation matters. Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler-- and this latter part is often difficult." do nothing to assuage this.

The original article of course, highlights one of a number of embarrassing public episodes where a complete outsider strings together a pastiche of phrases into a paper or a presentation or some such, and it passes the muster of the group as being legitimate and meaningful to that group even though it is, by way of purpose, complete gibberish. Again, this further supports the notion that 2 is correct, that the field is composed mostly of nonsense and claims of "no it's not" without supporting evidence or a rough, layman's exposition does nothing to counter that.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, they are simple and should be easy to answer, if there is an answer: if I'm missing something, then show me what it is, in terms I can understand. This is a patently unfair test. Without a doubt, someone with infinite patience could take the time to explain all this to Chomsky-- but the fact that he lacks the inclination to actually study Continental Philosophy, and there aren't any volunteers willing to take…

> if Paul McCartney said that someone should explain Perelman's proof of the Poincare Conjecture to him, and that if they couldn't, it meant that it was bunk. Sure, it's possible that Chomsky hasn't taken the time to truly understand Continental Philosophy or lacks the technical training to understand it even if someone were to explain it all to him. But it's also possible that continental philosophy is just profound…

[deleted]

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, they are simple and should be easy to answer, if there is an answer: if I'm missing something, then show me what it is, in terms I can understand. This is a patently unfair test. Without a doubt, someone with infinite patience could take the time to explain all this to Chomsky-- but the fact that he lacks the inclination to actually study Continental Philosophy, and there aren't any volunteers willing to take…

Did you read Chomsky's full response at the provided link, rather than just the quoted snippet? If you have, do you disagree with his comments on Derrida's Grammatology, on Foucault's work, or his general comments on the other works he's at least tried to read? It appears he at least did some due diligence, and took the time to speak with some of the authors.

I did read his comments back in '95, and I re-read the comments about Derrida now. (I am not particularly interested in Foucault, so I skipped his reading of him.)

Chomsky claims to have found "Of Grammatology" full of "pathetic misreadings." Unfortunately, he doesn't take the time to outline what these might be-- and oddly enough, neither does anybody else, to my knowledge. I know of only one publication claiming that Derrida misreads his sources in "OG", and that was in a letter to the Times Literary Supplement many years ago; several responses were published, and personally, I don't think Derrida misread Curtius as claimed.

Now, although the subject matter of "Of Grammatology" is nominally linguistics, we have to remember that Derrida is not a linguist (nor pretending to be) and is interested, rather, in the philosophical implications of several arguments concerning linguistics made by Saussure, Levi-Strauss and Rousseau. And, to the best of my knowledge, Chomsky shows no interest in his published writings in the latter two, and isn't much enamored with the former.

So, "Of Grammatology" is only tangentially related to Chomsky's field of interest. Which is fine, of course. But I suspect that this lead him to be more dismissive than necessary: I think he mistakes his lack of interest with Derrida's lack of a point.

Derrida does make an important argument in OG, but it is largely aimed at a certain group of Structuralists, who were active in the French academy at the time it was published. In other words, Derrida's in the middle of a fight that Chomsky has nothing at all to do with, and I think his lack of skin in the game got in the way of an open-minded reading.

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooh, that would be interesting. Let's start with the first: what is the point of deconstruction? (Or as Chomsky argues - why is deconstruction necessary when the conclusions it reaches can be simply divined by ordinary laypersons, without all the verbosity and the pretentiousness of language?)

Let's not, actually. Let's start with you reading (and demonstrating to me a core competence of) the basic texts of philosophy leading up to deconstruction-- in this case, that would be Husserl, Heidegger, Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud and Levinas. When you have those six down, I'd be happy to explain deconstruction to you.

Then you've already failed. Getting a layman's explanation of a topic should not require one to become the equivalent of an undergrad in that topic.

What you should be saying is "Deconstruction is an approach, introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida, which rigorously pursues the meaning of a text to the point of exposing the contradictions and internal oppositions upon which it is apparently founded and showing that those foundations are irreducibly complex, unstable or impossible" (courtesy wikipedia).

And then the layman asks "how does this approach expose contradictions?"

And you say "Deconstructions work entirely within the studied text to expose and undermine the frame of reference, assumptions, and ideological underpinnings of the text. Although deconstructions can be developed using different methods and techniques, the process typically involves demonstrating the multiple possible readings of a text and their resulting internal conflicts, and undermining binary oppositions (e.g. masculine/feminine, old/new)."

and there we have it, good enough for the layman to realize it's a line of thinking he's probably not interested in pursuing anymore. And then...if they keep on that, you say, "this is getting a bit into the deep end for me to make it simple and explainable, if you are really interested, start by reading these books first."

Re: How to Deconstruct Almost Anything, by a Software Engineer

#90
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an easy test to see if a subject has inherent meaning or not. Just submit a randomly constructed article to the related journal and see if they publish it. PS: Guess which side won?

Not the side you think. Sokal punked a minor journal that was not particularly well known in the field. His book with Bricmont, attacking "postmodernism", on the other hand, was published by a major publisher, even though large swaths of it had been thoroughly debunked.

No, I was talking about a more personal connection. In the publish or perish environment it's easy to submit gibberish that sounds reasonable just to get another paper out there.
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