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Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

nytimes.com

161–170 of 178 posts

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If America doesn't do it, China will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the US standing toe-to-toe laughable. If China doesn't, Russia will. External tools will still provide orders of magnitude more advantage than any gene-edited maximum human body. Your soldiers can bench press a hundred more pounds than us? Big deal, ours can just press a button and…

Other powers have nukes too, so using it is out of the question. If nukes are not used, technology and economic capacity will determine the results. Russia has a lot of good engineers and scientists but they don't have the industrial capacity to compete with the US. China's current capacity may already be double that of the US but its technology is still catching up (fast). Winning wars requires intelligence not raw…

AMD uses GlobalFoundries.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries ) The firm manufactures integrated circuits in high volume mostly for semiconductor companies such as AMD, Broadcom, Qualcomm, and STMicroelectronics. It has five 200 mm wafer fabrication plants in Singapore, one 300 mm fabrication plant in each of Germany and Singapore, and three fabrication plants in the United States: one 200 mm fabrication plant in Vermont (where it is the largest private employer) and two 300 mm fabrication plants in New York.

Fab 8, located in Luther Forest Technology Campus, Saratoga County, New York, United States is a new 300 mm fab. This fabrication plant was constructed by GF as a green field fab for advanced technologies. It is capable of manufacturing 14 nm node technology. The plant's construction began in July 2009 and the company started mass production in 2012.[5][10] It has a maximum manufacturing capacity of 60,000 of 300 mm wafers/month, or the equivalent of over 135,000 of 200 mm wafers/month. In September 2016, GlobalFoundries announced it would make a multibillion-dollar investment to refit Fab 8 to produce 7 nm FinFET parts starting in the second half of 2018.[11] The process is planned to initially use deep ultraviolet lithography, and eventually transition to extreme ultraviolet lithography.[12] Technology: 28 nm and 14 nm. 7 nm planned.

Fab 9,[13] located in the village of Essex Junction, Vermont, United States, near Vermont's largest city of Burlington, became part of GlobalFoundries operations with the acquisition of IBM Microelectronics. The fab manufactures technologies down to the 90 nm node and is the largest private employer within the state of Vermont. The site also hosts a captive mask shop, with development efforts down to the 7 nanometer node.

They are building a fab in China, but not for AMD stuff.

( http://www.anandtech.com/show/11117/globalfoundries-to-expan... )

GlobalFoundries operates 10 fabs worldwide with four of them processing 300 mm wafers. The company’s most advanced fab is the Fab 8 located in Luther Forest Technology Campus (Saratoga County, New York) where the chipmaker produces flagship processors for AMD and some other leading developers of chips. To keep the Fab 8 up-to-date, GlobalFoundries spends billions of dollars on development of new manufacturing technologies and production equipment. Back in September, the company already announced plans to invest several billion in new tools to produce ICs (integrated circuits) using its 7 nm fabrication process and this week GlobalFoundries said it would invest in the expansion of the Fab 8’s manufacturing capacity.

Also, re: the Intel-using sites in the Top500 (the vast majority are using Intel or AMD processors, see https://www.top500.org/statistics/list/ ) those are largely made in the USA too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If America doesn't do it, China will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the US standing toe-to-toe laughable. If China doesn't, Russia will. External tools will still provide orders of magnitude more advantage than any gene-edited maximum human body. Your soldiers can bench press a hundred more pounds than us? Big deal, ours can just press a button and…

Other powers have nukes too, so using it is out of the question. If nukes are not used, technology and economic capacity will determine the results. Russia has a lot of good engineers and scientists but they don't have the industrial capacity to compete with the US. China's current capacity may already be double that of the US but its technology is still catching up (fast). Winning wars requires intelligence not raw…

If the only thing we care about is an IQ arms race between countries then the end result will be brains in jars instead of superhumans. There is no free lunch.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choices, the answer is people choose to behave as they do, when they do and how they do.

What is choice? I don't believe that "free will" exists. The concept isn't even meaningfully defined for non-dualists. In reality, we're Turing machines. We have certain inputs, a memory, and certain outputs.

Yeah sure you might find low hanging fruit and get free increases in "performance" by 10%-30% and bugfixes by simply optimizing the turing machine without any tradeoffs but most of the value is in optimizing the programs and data that are available to the machine. The best part: It doesn't require any modification to the turing machine, the effects appear very quickly within roughly two decades after birth and very often they can be upgraded later which means we don't have to deal with obsolete or buggy turing machines and even if they installed a suboptimal program and can't or don't want to remove it then next generation will still install new programs from a clean slate which is still more desirable than turing machine optimization that requires multiple generations to take effect. Heck by the time the turing machine optimization becomes available it might not even be optimal anymore because it was based around our needs X generations ago instead of what we need now.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several problems. First, what is intelligence? Is it simply math & science? What if we lose other hard-to-measure, essential traits? How much happiness is "better"? Should we "switch on" a gene that makes someone perpetually happier, given the option? What happens when a set of traits becomes popular? Will diversity be lost? Will everyone choose lighter shades of skin?

Those are fantastic questions. Aren't they worth exploring with further research?

Here's one I find interesting. There is always talk of choosing for white, or lighter, skin, but what about the other side of the coin. Tanning is a huge business. Large numbers of white skinned people try to get a tan whilst on holiday, or use tanning salons. Large numbers of white people bemoan their inability to get a decent tan. What if lots of white people were to choose to have light brown children so that they would find it much easier to get a decent tan?

Another point of discussion: in the article there was talk of de-valuing disabled people. But surely the point of all this is to eliminate disability - if possible. Can anyone give any reason why this would be considered a bad thing? I'm not talking about devaluing existing disabled people (although evidence seems to suggest that we barely value them as people at the moment, though things are gradually improving). But surely anyone given the choice of being born with a disability or being born without the disability would choose the latter?

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other powers have nukes too, so using it is out of the question. If nukes are not used, technology and economic capacity will determine the results. Russia has a lot of good engineers and scientists but they don't have the industrial capacity to compete with the US. China's current capacity may already be double that of the US but its technology is still catching up (fast). Winning wars requires intelligence not raw…

If the only thing we care about is an IQ arms race between countries then the end result will be brains in jars instead of superhumans. There is no free lunch.

People care about many things. But if they get one good thing like intelligence without losing others, they will go for it.

In China, they do not have religious reasons against improving humans. And parents rely on kids to take care of them when they are old. Intelligence often predicts earnings. So if it's safe, they will do it.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#166
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

think banning him is a bit harsh. A warning should be fine. I also don't think he meant to be racist, he is just afraid something as powerful as gene editing can get into hands of wrong people. Not saying all chineese are bad.

I'm always happy to see community members reading others charitably, and I'm also happy to be wrong about any HN user's intentions (and unban or adjust accordingly). However, in my experience comments like this never lead anywhere good in the future, both in terms of their effect on threads and in terms of future output from such accounts. So we'd need a commitment not to post like this again to HN.

seeing through his posting history, you may be right in banning him.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#167
post #72
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little dangerous to think gene-editing is the cure to human-ills, and that it is "natural" progress for the human race. Considering everything currently known in the human sciences, I think what you're asking for is asking too much of gene-editing alone. I prefer the Star Trek view of gene-editing, for genetic diseases, ok. Otherwise, no. Arguably, there is nothing to make better, or faster than what evolution…

Haven't we effectively halted evolution, though? Strength doesn't really matter when you can become wildly "fit" in this world via brains alone, brains don't really matter when you live in a society that isn't ok with (generally) letting people die on the streets of hunger, etc. Seems the traits being selected for is a total crapshoot - anything goes.

Well, not quite in that way. Survival of the fittest doesn't literally mean 'survival of those with the most physical strength'. It means survival of those most well adapted to their environment, intelligence included.

And evolution hasn't effectively halted either. It's hard to tell that sure (because evolution on a massively noticeable level is a slow process and human history is short) but the whole process of genetic mutations arising and people doing better because those mutations make them slightly better for their environment is still going on.

And the traits selected for aren't random nor a crapshoot, they're just kind of overshadowed by social situations and hierarchies. If there were two kids from the exact same background and one was 'more intelligent' than the other, the more intelligent one might do better. But it's very rarely that simple in society now.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#168

A lot of people will be talking about ethics. But I'm thinking more along the lines of economics. Rich people having expensive gene edited kids. They're stronger, smarter, more driven, and healthier than your kids. They are better looking. They'll be more advanced than kids their age. They'll have all sorts of built in advantages. The social and economic gap will widen. Opportunities come easier to the people who loo…

You know what's funny? That it already is as you describe - due to environmental reasons. Better food. Better rearing. Better access to developmental aids. And all this without any needless expensive gene editing.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#169
post #6

>and is sure to renew ethical concerns that some might try to design babies with certain traits, like greater intelligence or athleticism. If America doesn't do it, China will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the US standing toe-to-toe laughable. If China doesn't, Russia will. I want genetic engineering because it's logical that as humans learn to exer…

> it's inevitable that we also learn to control our own evolution.

The problem here is the pronoun "we" and "our". It isn't "we" who are going to control evolution. It is a select group of wealthy elites.

Also, just because china and russia might do it doesn't mean that we necessarily should do it. After all, the pioneers of illegal human experimentation was the US and britain but most of the world didn't follow along.

I agree with you that genetic engineering ( controlled evolution? ) is inevitable. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the ethical concerns and other such pitfalls.

Re: Scientists Edit a Dangerous Mutation in Human Embryos

#170
post #73
post #6

>and is sure to renew ethical concerns that some might try to design babies with certain traits, like greater intelligence or athleticism. If America doesn't do it, China will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the US standing toe-to-toe laughable. If China doesn't, Russia will. I want genetic engineering because it's logical that as humans learn to exer…

I like how you portray the US to have a higher moral standard for this subject matter. I wonder if there's a Chinese guy who read the article and said: If China doesn't do it, USA will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the Chinese standing toe-to-toe laughable. If USA doesn't, Russia will. Maybe it is time to start thinking about an international agreem…

> I like how you portray the US to have a higher moral standard for this subject matter. I wonder if there's a Chinese guy who read the article and said:

It's just the nature of where we live and our propaganda.

We have been told over and over that we are the light of the world and we represent good. China/Russia/Muslims/others represent bad.

> If China doesn't do it, USA will, and in a generation will be swollen with a population so much more fit as to make the question of the Chinese standing toe-to-toe laughable. If USA doesn't, Russia will.

I'm sure there is. Human beings are human beings.

In the future, maybe instead of national/racial demarcations, we'll have "valid" and "invalid" demarcations a la "Gattaca".

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