Before all the thought experiments, which I'm sure will ensue below, I just want to ask. Is it possible that men and women are actually different?
(The `flag` button above to mod this comment into oblivion.)
When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
311–320 of 362 posts
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#312Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
> 3. Women tend to choose lower paying jobs, such as teacher, caregiver etc. In general women tend to care about people while men care about things (STEM). Again: biology or social construct Social construct. Look at Asian countries that by all accounts have less gender quality than the west but have more women science graduates. India is double the U.K. on that metric. The fact that Sweden has skewed representation…
This sounds more like a fault of the parents than of the society. "The Constructs of Society" seems like too vague a notion to be able to measure or determine its impact. A person may be dissuaded from pursuing something because "society" really is doing so, or because they perceive society is doing so. In some instances it's easy to determine which is the reason, in others I think it's more difficult.
At the end of the day, part of being a good adult and parent in 2017 is not just accepting whatever constructs * you feel "society" is shoving down your throat. Think critically to form your own principles and beliefs, and act on them (so long as they are within the bounds law). Obviously this is easier said than done, and also there are probably places on earth where this isn't feasible. But I feel that in most of the developed world it is.
* not you rayiner, I mean you third person (I'm not accusing you of being a bad adult/parent!)
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#313Women don't advance in rank as fast as men, and so end up being paid less. Thus article doesn't refute that because it admits that level is factor in the pay gap. As to why women don't advance as fast ... my opinion is that it's primarily motherhood that does it. It puts a career on hold for 6 months times the number of children, and women are socially expected to be primary caregivers so they feel pressured not to w…
Minimum 6 months in some countries.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you think causes such extreme gender disparities in positions like CEO, or board of directors?
I don't know. There are many possible explanations. One is sexism. Another is that women are less likely to negotiate. Another is that maybe women tend to be CEOs of companies that are less valuable, or that rely less on the expertise of their CEO.
Ok, so why are they less likely to negotiate, why are they more likely to ascend at less valuable companies, etc. The whole point of talking about the wage gap is figuring out why it exists. And inevitably, there are only two possible ends to this investigation. Either there are inherent biological differences that cause women to be less effective and valuable in our economy, or some societal manifestation of sexism is causing these differences. As far as I can tell there is no other possible answer.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#315Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
> 3. Women tend to choose lower paying jobs, such as teacher, caregiver etc. In general women tend to care about people while men care about things (STEM). Again: biology or social construct Social construct. Look at Asian countries that by all accounts have less gender quality than the west but have more women science graduates. India is double the U.K. on that metric. The fact that Sweden has skewed representation…
>>Just because society doesn't explicitly discriminate against women doesn't mean that it's not telling women that they should be interested in princesses and fairies instead of legos.
In my whole life I haven't faced a single situation where parents literally force a doll on their daughter instead of a Lego Kit. You are over stating the whole problem.
>>This is entirely parents projecting gender norms onto their kids.
Kids are not bots that you train them. Acceptance into peer groups is a major factor, and most kids gravitate to what friends around them are doing, or they go to friends whose area of interest attracts them.
Also I'm not a great fan of forcing things on kids. People should do what they are interested in, else it creates meaningless pressure and kids are generally slotted and forced to make up to unrealistic expectations from parents.
Here in India, this is a huge problem where every single parent wants their kids to get into STEM. Most don't want to and when they do bad at school and exams, they have to face routine humiliation among social circles and peer groups as losers. Many are driven to suicide. These people will do way better in other walks of life and must be allowed to.
>>The expectation was that an upper class woman would be educated so she could marry well, not for work.
As an Indian where social norms are similar to an extent this is not only ok, but rather even preferable.
If you look at how life unfolds here, there is massive pressure on men to be efficient and provide for their families to the best of their abilities. This not easy, forget about all this empowerment new age talk, in reality most men slog away whole life, working insane hours, doing weekends and working very difficult conditions to make it happen.
This is hard for women to do for many reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. Given this, financial security becomes way more important than making up to virtue signaling from other people. Hence marrying a rich spouse that can provide for life is more important than making careers in our culture.
For most men here, things don't feel like freedom and empowerment. Its a swim through an ocean of hellfire to provide for families.
I would be more than happy to sit at home and be oppressed. And let women have all this empowerment. But deep down everybody knows what the real deal is, which is why no one signs up for something like this.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#316Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
> 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? I believe this is a very weird ponderation. The whole point is that capitalists don't do that because there is sexism among them. They are ignoring rational evidence because they have a preconceived idea that women are worse employees. If capitalists were…
I don't think that this line of reasoning is very solid, because (a) men running companies definitely have some variation among them and (b) sports teams are small groups and not really representative of the problems facing larger organizations. One difference is that lots of people really want to play sports -- there will always be a huge surplus of eager applicants. In a situation like that, you can be discriminatory and still manage to get together a team, and even a moderately good one (but not the best).
Large companies, on the other hand, have to hire thousands of people a year; and for jobs that are not much fun and which often require considerable training. The effect often has been to reduce discrimination. To take examples from an earlier era -- many immigrant populations in the US found their way into one or another industry this way.
Notably they did not find their way into every industry equally; and some minorities have benefitted less from this effect; but it did happen. The comparable effect would be that we should see some industries adapting to the lower cost of women's labor in something -- though probably not the most elite (posh and desirable) industries.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#317I hate these kinds of statistics because all they say is "If we discount all the things creating the pay gap, basically no pay gap exists". Industries typically inhabited by women getting paid less? Predominantly male/female industries suddnely decreasing/increasing in average pay when women/men enter it? Women having a lesser likelihood of getting promoted? Women having a lower likelihood of getting hired for higher…
The point is to focus on the right thing: if pay within roles is more or less equal, then focusing on negotiation tactics, salary disparity and so forth is not going to accomplish much.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, women who take time off to raise kids will take a hit to income. In a married family, the husband compensates. If the woman is unmarried, she gets child support/alimony to make up the difference. So, either you're arguing that child support/alimony is too low, or that married couples get hosed with the externality of having children. This is recognized in law, and people with children get tax deductions, and if…
I feel for you getting down-voted. Clearly a logical cogent reply.
Certain truths have to be told with a throwaway...
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
My SO is a high school teacher and it's actually pretty close to reality for her. She has had the entire summer off and still has over two weeks left before she goes back to work. During the school year, she probably does average more than 40 hours per week, but the excess is flexible and often done at her convenience and at home. That's quite a bit better than a 3AM emergency call to the operating room. And it's nev…
> That's quite a bit better than a 3AM emergency call to the operating room. We need to quit with this idea that all doctors are either emergency physicians or emergency surgeons. Most doctors are not that. And does anyone really believe that if teachers worked just a few more hours per week, they'd all be driving maseratis?
The infographic in question specifically referenced thoracic surgeons, who are considerably more likely to experience on-call rotations or emergencies than, say, a family physician.
I honestly don't know what your second sentence is referencing. I was simply stating that, contrary to some claims here, many high school teachers absolutely get the entire summer off and don't work much more than 40 hours per week during the school year.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. I said basically that? The culture problem in tech is not the cause, it’s just the end symptom of many things - including what you’re taking about.
> it’s just the end symptom of many things I'm not disagreeing, but "systems" is the reason I've often heard in this discussion without ANY real hard data expanding on what these systems precisely are and how they aren't a reflection merely of, let's say, biology. All I see generally when referring to "systems" are anecdotes and high-level conclusions based purely on personal experiences. None of which helps further…
Well there are entire fields of science dedicated to this.
It’s like asking someone to “prove philosophy”. It’s not quite the right question.