Earlier quoted context omitted.
Teachers make more per hour than doctors, when you factor in benefits like pension and not having huge medical school loans: http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/
That graphic assumes that doctors work 59.6 hours per week, which sounds like a number pulled from somewhere, and that teachers work 40 hours per week, which sounds like they're assuming a "standard" work week. But that only makes sense if you assume teachers barely work more than the school day itself, which seems implausible. It also assumes that teachers work 38 weeks per year. That would mean a 3.5-month summer b…
When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
261–270 of 362 posts
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#262Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? Invert this: what explains capitalists paying women 25% less for the same skills? Why aren't the salaries of men decreased in light of actual proof that the work can be done for less?
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
http://news.ufl.edu/archive/2015/04/why-everything-youve-hea... "Miller and Douglas discovered that women who had experience with successful negotiation were superior negotiators to men, even when they rated themselves as only average negotiators."
What's being discussed is not skill at negotiating, but predilection for it.
In the same vein, people who have never studied French are generally less inclined to join a conversation in French.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#264When adjusted for factors such as hiatuses for raising kids, the answer is 'no.'
Why don't men take these hiatuses?
Parenthood can be a vacation or hard work depending on whether you are a good or bad parent. Just being a parent does not mean that it is difficult work. And if it is hard work, it can be easily argued that being a parent is more meaningful work than 99% of corporate jobs.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#265Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
It's interesting to consider that many of these lower paying jobs - such as teachers/caregivers are very hard to tie performance to profits. Therefore the market forces are different or nonexistent, who hires a $500,000/year rock star grade school teacher? Even if such a thing exists and has real impact.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
My SO is a high school teacher and it's actually pretty close to reality for her. She has had the entire summer off and still has over two weeks left before she goes back to work. During the school year, she probably does average more than 40 hours per week, but the excess is flexible and often done at her convenience and at home. That's quite a bit better than a 3AM emergency call to the operating room. And it's nev…
> That's quite a bit better than a 3AM emergency call to the operating room. We need to quit with this idea that all doctors are either emergency physicians or emergency surgeons. Most doctors are not that. And does anyone really believe that if teachers worked just a few more hours per week, they'd all be driving maseratis?
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#267Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
> 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? I believe this is a very weird ponderation. The whole point is that capitalists don't do that because there is sexism among them. They are ignoring rational evidence because they have a preconceived idea that women are worse employees. If capitalists were…
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#268Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…
Here's another claim I've heard many times and never seen refuted (or even challenged): Tall men are paid more than short men (extending into non-physical work such as programming.)
A company that recognizes this should hire a bunch of short programmers at a discount and trounce their competition...but they don't.
I'd suggest these factors:
1. Despite the fact that short men get paid less, you can't just take a tall candidate, find a shorter one with equivalent skills, and hire him at a discount. Finding and identifying the optimal fit for a job is already beyond our abilities--adding in this extra restriction just isn't feasible.
2. This bias isn't an explicit bias like "I hate short people". It's a subconscious "I feel better about this candidate". Our decisions are based on black box gut feelings, so offsetting our subconscious bias is extremely difficult.
3. Tall men might actually be more effective in programming jobs, simply because we afford them higher status as a society--that adds value in a job that involves working with other people...such as programming.
Suppose 3 is true--I suspect it is. Even if I overcome my bias and hiring challenges to get past 1 and 2, 3 means the rational thing for me to do when hiring is to pay the extra for tall programmers, because in our society, they'll perform better.
But an alternative universe where no one has this bias in the first place will result result in a more optimal allocation of resources.
There are times where you can get an advantage by overcoming a bias others experience, but there are times where you can't and the only fix is to fix society at large. (Maybe I can just fix that bias in every one of my employees, but limiting myself to the small set of people who lack a pervasive bias means reducing my talent pool--probably so much that it offsets the competitive gain I get.)
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#269I hate these kinds of statistics because all they say is "If we discount all the things creating the pay gap, basically no pay gap exists". Industries typically inhabited by women getting paid less? Predominantly male/female industries suddnely decreasing/increasing in average pay when women/men enter it? Women having a lesser likelihood of getting promoted? Women having a lower likelihood of getting hired for higher…
>"If we discount all the things creating the pay gap, basically no pay gap exists" It's called a meritocracy. And its what most people want. People will always want to play the victim card regardless.
Even in an actual meritocracy (which we most definitely are not in), there are still human people who are the ones picking the criteria, and human people who are the ones evaluating others on those criteria. Human people, with all of their explicit and unconscious biases. And, to make it harder, there are many of those criteria that do not have objective measurements.
Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
"These are four year olds, they have no preferences. It's purely parents projecting gender roles onto their kids." Without litigating this specific case in any detail, I just want to argue more generally that of course 4-year-olds (and much younger) have gender-based preferences and that there is loads of research confirming this. It's remarkable that this is considered even remotely controversial.
I'm talking about preferences regarding science camp versus princess camp (or a chemistry degree versus an English degree). My daughter is incredibly gender normative. Everything is pink and frilly and she refuses to wear pants. But she has no idea that science is for boys.